The Stories That Connect Us with Upworthy's Gabriel Reilich and Lucia Knell

Andrea: Welcome to those who can't do, I am your host, Andrea Forcum. And today we have two very special guests. We have Gabriel Reilich and Lucia Knell, who thank you guys so much for being here today. 

Gabriel: Thank you so much for having us. It's our pleasure. 

Lucia: Thanks 

Andrea: so much. Totally. You guys are the authors of an incredible book that I have been so enjoying, um, and it's Good People Stories from the Best of Humanity.

And you guys are actually from the very popular platform, Upworthy. 

Lucia: That's right. We certainly are. Yeah. 

Andrea: Yeah. I love it. Now I was reading a little bit about you guys and it sounds like this book kind of came as a result of the work that you guys do at Upworthy. Do you want to talk a little bit if I can't imagine that anybody who's listening to this podcast has not heard of Upworthy because it is like the, one of the most positive things that you can see come across your feed.

Um, but if you guys could share a little bit about that platform and kind of what the purpose is. 

Lucia: You know, we started the Upworthy Instagram account, um, Upworthy is a much bigger organization. We have a whole editorial operation that's amazing and has been spreading stories of the best of humanity for over a decade.

Um, but Gabe and I started the Instagram because we really needed a space ourselves initially, um, to, you know, See stories of goodness, see stories of human decency, um, and, you know, empathy and compassion in a media landscape that otherwise wasn't very, um, wasn't delivering on that front really. Um, and so we decided to almost create a hub, um, whereby, you know, we collected stories from all over the internet, um, which then became a combination of that and submissions from our audience and the account just grew and grew, um, because other people needed it too.

Gabriel: Yeah, it was a simple thing at first. It's like, wouldn't it be nice if there was a place that you could go to on social media where you would just see some of the good stuff happening in the world? And, uh, we're like, yeah, you know, it feels like that should exist. And we didn't really see much of that going on.

You know, now it's a little bit of a different landscape. This was, you know, um, several years ago. And it's great to see that there's, um, you know, different accounts and people and, you know, folks who have made, uh, you know, whole careers out of doing that and sharing the best of the world as well. So it's nice to see that it's caught on a bit.

Andrea: Yeah. No kidding. So now how did you guys find those? You said you like scoured the internet because I, I feel like in so many platforms, negative stories and you know, hot take type content, it just does better on social media because it makes people angry. Right. And so it gets interactions and it gets a lot more, um, play on social media.

So how did you guys find a lot of those stories initially? I 

Gabriel: mean, a lot of it would be, at least I can speak for myself as I am, um. An avid user of the internet, you know, so I'm exploring all different, uh, corners of curation that are going on. I'm getting, you know, memes and, uh, uh, stories shared from friends and, um, I'm reading what people are saying.

And so if, you know, something is, uh, if someone shares an interesting story in a comment on a post about an experience they had, that can be something that we share. If, um, You know, we see something rise up on, uh, you know, somewhere else, uh, on the internet and be like, wow, more people should see this on the platform where we reach people.

Um, we'll put it out there and, you know, sometimes it's, you know, the old Mr. Rogers sensibility, right? Of look for the helpers. And, um, there might be all the difficult things that are happening in the world and the really hard to process, um, news events and everything happening in the culture. And there's one angle to take on that, which is, here's how horrible it is, and then there's another angle, which is, you know what, here's somebody who's doing something about it, or here's someone who's stepped up in a really difficult time, um, and then looking for those stories and telling those, um, narratives instead.

Um, and that's kind of what we started focusing, uh, doing both on Upworthy. com and, uh, on AdWorthy, on social. 

Lucia: I think also it's been amazing. To your point, Andrea, it's like, it's so common to see rage baiting headlines or fear baiting headlines. I think now more than ever, there's truly an abundance of them.

Yeah. Um, but it speaks volumes that the rate with which we've grown and the engagement we see on a daily basis, like we're reaching millions of people on a daily basis because of how far these stories travel. And so it just proves out that there's a demand for it, there's a need for it, um, people are engaging with it at a rate that's just as, you know, quick or even faster, um, in some cases than, uh, stories that are evoking a sense of fear and dread because, you know, we're naturally inclined to, you know, to Gabe's point, to look for the things that hopefully uplift us and give us a reason to get out of bed in the morning.

Andrea: That's awesome. So how did that lead you guys to writing this book together? Because it's one thing to like collect and curate for online. It's another thing to, you know, put all of these stories into a narrative form and put them into an anthology of just really uplifting stories. So how did it, how did it lead to that?

Gabriel: Yeah, you know, it's funny. It's, uh, we were building this account and, uh, You know, like we said, it originally started so we'd have a place to go and then the community just started growing and growing and all of a sudden we have millions of followers, um, which was kind of just like a esoteric number.

It's such a big number. You're like, who are these people? What's happening here? And the best part, um, of the work that we've done is getting insight into the fact that you know this isn't just a huge number in a follower account but these are real people and so what we see happening is we would post a story about a great teacher for example and then people in the comments would be inspired and then they would start you know having memories triggered of their own and they would share their own series of stories, this reminds me of you know a teacher that i had in the second grade who did something similar and i'll never forget her and then other people would chime in and we're like wow this is great lucci and i would Send each other screencaps of that and be like, wow, isn't this a great story?

And sometimes we would share those screenshots of the comments as their own posts. And it just created this kind of, uh, you know, feedback loop of story sharing. 

Lucia: I mean, yeah, also, just to be clear, it's like when Gabe and I were sending these screenshots to each other, it was usually on the weekend being like, why am I sobbing right now?

Like, what's happening here? So like, wasn't planning on crying in the club as it were. Right. But we saw You know, this opportunity to try to, you know, um, foster a community whereby people were encouraged to share their stories. And everyone has a story, but what's funny about humans is sometimes we feel like we need permission to share them.

And so Gabe and I started, uh, what was first? What was frustrating was that we were getting all these incredible comments just naturally and organically. And they had just such profound, you know, emotional messages. And, you know, rooted in nostalgia and beauty. But algorithms are designed to just Sweep them away instantly.

It's like capitalizing on our dwindling attention spans and saying like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool and nice, but on to the next video, on to the next thing. And so we thought that these stories deserved more. We thought they deserved more attention, more focus. And so we started asking questions to the audience with more of a sense of intention.

So for example, what's the kindest thing a stranger ever did for you? We get thousands of comments. Similarly, who's that teacher who changed your life? Same thing. We read every single comment. We said, what's a form, uh, which took a long time and it was lovely and beautiful, very rewarding. And we said, what's a form that could be more permanent, that could preserve these forever?

And Gabe was like, have you ever heard of this thing called book? And I was like, what? No, I'm just kidding. It has a 

Gabriel: lot of lasting power. Uh, the book. Yeah, he's like, wait 

Lucia: a second. Like literal scripture. Yeah. Um, and so we decided Yeah, that seems like a pretty, you know, a pretty reliable, um, form of preserving a story and, um, you know, it ended up being a collection of a hundred and one of them, we reached out to hundreds of members of our audience via DMs, we said, hey, we'd love to know more about this, can we interview you, um, over the course of two years ended up You know, forming relationships with real people, um, offline, putting a face to a handle, um, and yeah, it's just been the most rewarding project to see it come to life.

Andrea: That's incredible. So now a lot of these stories then were other people's stories, but you guys wrote them out and like crafted them into like a narrative form. Is that how it worked? 

Gabriel: Yeah. 

Andrea: Okay. And, and then Gabe, one of these stories is actually from your life, right? 

Gabriel: Yeah. Uh, you know, we have a chapter in the book called Learn by Heart, which is all about teachers and the important, uh, educators in people's lives that they'll never forget.

Um, and. We noticed that if we asked people, you know, the question that Lucia said, you know, who's that teacher who you'll never forget, who's, you know, Left an impression on your life that has stayed with you forever. And just thousands and thousands of responses. Everybody seems to have a teacher like that in their life.

And I'm, I have one. Um, and it happened very, very early on in my, uh, history of education. But, uh, when I was in kindergarten. I had a teacher, Miss Bean, and she really shaped how I see the world. And what happened was, you know, I remember on my first day of school, I was, uh, driving, uh, there. Well, I wasn't driving because I was five.

That would be dangerous and illegal. Um, but my mom, my mom was driving me. I had a bowl haircut. And, you know, I think the task at hand was like, memorize your address and your phone number in case, you know, you need that. That's like the, the, Top priority at that age. Um, and I got to there and I was like, okay, I can do this.

I can memorize this number. I'm going to ace this, you know, and I walk into class and you know, there's all these kids just running around this frenetic energy. And you know, it's kind of funny. You can remember that a little bit, even as an adult, you're like, Whoa, this is, this is the real deal here. You know, I'm surrounded 

Theme: by new 

Gabriel: people and new experiences, but I noticed something that was a little different that I, uh, About the kids versus myself, which was that, um, you know, they all had two eyes that were visible and I only had one because I wore an eye patch.

Um, I have, uh, or had, um, uh, what is colloquially called lazy eye, um, and medically known as amblyopia. So I had a weak eye, um, and in order to strengthen it, I had to cover the strong eye so that, uh, my brain would build a better connection, um, with the weak eye. And so I had to wear an eye patch. I was like, Oh, yeah.

All these kids have two eyes. I have one. This is not great. Like, I'm, I'm different. 

Andrea: You were doing that math real quick. 

Gabriel: I don't know too much about navigating the world, but I know it's probably good to blend in a bit in the beginning. And so I don't know if Miss Bean had been told by my parents that I had this going on or she just picked up on my nervous energy, but she definitely could tell, you know, something was going on.

And so. When she told the entire class to sit down, uh, she said, Gabe, why don't you come up here and stand in front of the class? I was like, this is not what I want to be doing right now, but you're 

Andrea: like, the opposite of this, please. I would like, be like, what is the version of like, there's, I'm 

Gabriel: like, there's this whole thing of cubby holes over there.

Can I like, crawl into that instead? Um, anyway, she stood me up in front of the class and she just simply said, this is Gabe, uh, his eye is on vacation. Are there any questions? When the class looked and they're like, no, no, no questions. That's a reasonable explanation for someone having a huge bandaid over their eye.

Um, and that was that. And, you know, what it taught me about, um, the world was, you know, it is possible to move through it and be scared at times and learn that people will have your back, you know. Um, and it also like the, important role of somebody who's in a position of authority or an adult to recognize what's happening and to put someone at ease and use that position to make sure that, you know, curiosity about why someone is different doesn't curdle into bullying, um, to let, to address something head on.

And so, you know, I think from an early age, it let me know that the world is not necessarily such a dangerous, untrustworthy place. And I'm very thankful I got that lesson because, you know, some people get different lessons. 

Andrea: Yeah, definitely. And, and on that note, do you guys, I mean, you guys work in such a positive space and you focus on the positive.

Do you ever go to work in a really bad mood and be like, I don't feel like being positive today. Do you guys ever have that or? Yeah. 

Lucia: Gabe and I, you know, we, Uh, I think we're aligned energetically. I mean, I'm speaking for both of us. I think Gabe and I are typically aligned energetically, depending on like what's going on that day, how stressful it is to work on the book or something else.

So we're human, you know, certainly, um, it definitely helps that our jobs are rifling through stories of human goodness, but just like anyone else, it's like. Sometimes I need to lie down and then do this later, you know, so 

Andrea: for sure, for sure, right? Like, I'm just imagining trying to write like a, you know, as teachers, we, a lot of times have to go up and regardless of the chaos of what's going on in the world, we have to like, be like, here we go.

Let's learn about Shakespeare. And the kids are like, I could care less. I'm sure it's a lot like what you guys kind of go through sometimes where you're like, let's focus on the good, even though that person just cut me off and I'm really not happy about how that went. 

Gabriel: Yeah, it can be, it can be hard. And I think one of the hardest things is not judging yourself too hard about it because, you know, you can't just be happy All the time.

It's like life is life. It's a range of emotions. And, um, you know, I, I think Lucia and I, we view what we do is like, um, on social media and with the team that supports us is a, you know, a public service to give people who may need that in that particular moment. But, you know, if you're not feeling it to take a moment to take a beat and be like, I'm not in a great place right now.

And that's okay. It's okay to take time for yourself. It's okay to unplug from the internet if you need to, and from social. 

Lucia: I love unplugging. It's my favorite thing. You're a big 

Gabriel: fan. 

Lucia: Huge fan of unplugging. 

Andrea: Speaking of Lucia, I did a little like Google search on you and saw that you were involved in a mental health campaign and that was one of the steps, right, for self care of, oh my goodness, I'm blanking on the name of the campaign right now, but unplug, it was like drink water, unplug, and 

Lucia: Uh, I should know this, but rest, I mean the importance of rest, as of years ago, I'm mortified.

Drink 

Gabriel: water is the most important one, so. 

Lucia: And I'm the worst at that. She loves to hydrate, listen. All your problems are because, 

Gabriel: all your problems are because you're dehydrated. Yeah, 

Lucia: sponsored by water, yeah. 

Andrea: Right, I mean honestly, like a lot of problems could be solved by unplugging, resting, and drinking more water, for sure.

Lucia: I think, in all seriousness, there's so much to be said about, this whole, uh, Turning off your screen. It's sort of like it was an intentional move to bring the upwardly feeling offline. Um, in today's day and age, we're addicted to our phones. It's like, that's not a question. And so it's almost become a radical act to turn off the phone and like, you know, book, you know, something tactile that you can touch and smell and like not have to look at a screen for.

It slows your body down. You know, it gives you an opportunity to focus in an otherwise, um, extremely fast world. So I really do believe in that. 

Andrea: Yeah. And I, I want to say as well, you guys also make it very easy for people with short attention spans because a lot of the stories are concise. Like they are like a page, two page, like when, when people open this book, they shouldn't be expecting like a 40 page story in one chapter.

It's a lot of little like. bite sized pieces of just human goodness. And I think that's also helpful for us in a time when, I mean, literacy levels are really low. And then we also mix that with our short attention spans and all of that. So it does make it a lot easier to open up a book when, you know, you can kind of get the full story of the one you're reading.

Fairly quickly, but they're all so good. You just kind of want to keep going. So I love that about it. Um, one thing you guys have talked a lot about is mean world syndrome. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Gabriel: Yeah, mean world syndrome is a media theory that was coined by Professor George Gerbner. And basically, it says that, you know, the way that you perceive the world is influenced by the media that you consume.

So, if you're hyper exposed to a, um, a narrative about humanity that is amplifying the bad things going on, of which there are many, you know, we can't ignore that, there are a lot of very difficult things happening, but if that's all that you're exposed to, um, which I think we can say safe to say is the majority of the news and the majority of, um, you know, a lot of the commentary about the news that is, uh, going on, that it can influence how you see, um, people.

And how you move about the world. So, uh, you know, just being exposed to, you know, the most violent things happening can make you less trustworthy of people. You start to think that the world is a more dangerous place than it actually is. And then, If you start thinking people are not trustworthy, uh, you start carrying that behavior out into the world.

And I think that that is what's kind of interesting because it becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy, right? So if you see the world as, you know, totally untrustworthy, if people is violent and self centered and horrible, and then you start interacting with people in that way, well, it becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Fulfilling prophecy, you know, you kind of create that world. Our, our philosophy is that maybe the opposite can also be true. That if you, um, can pay attention to the good things that are happening, and this doesn't mean to like bury your head in the sand about the difficult stuff that is happening. Don't, don't do that.

You need to be aware, but it's about like everything in life. It's about balance and, and knowing that, you know, not one narrative is true. And yet, We're consistently told that people are selfish, they're bad, you know, they're not looking out for each other, but, you know, uh, the amount of stories that we've gathered is a counterpoint to that.

And so if you can immerse yourself in that, and that's what this book is, it's like, uh, immersion therapy and, you know, bite sized stories of human goodness, you get a feeling, um, that I, you know, scientifically they call it, you know, elevation, you're elevated. And then if you can hold on to that feeling and carry that into the world, you know, maybe the next time someone cuts you off in traffic, you don't react poorly, or maybe you're looking for opportunities to be kind to people, and maybe that has a profound impact on someone, and it starts shaping the world in a bit of a softer, um, light, and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy that the world will become a better place.

Andrea: Yeah, I think that, you know, for, for parents and teachers alike, I think that the big fear with focusing on these kind of positive stories is always that we don't, we don't want to be, um, victimized because of our optimism, you know, like we, I think it's a fear based thing where it's like, well, if I tell my kid that Kids that like you go outside and most of everyone's going to be nice to you.

I don't want them to get hurt by like a stranger or by somebody who maybe is dangerous. And so I think for a lot of parents, that's, that's like the big concern. How do you suggest that people kind of communicate a little bit of, of like, don't be naive. Don't get in the, in the truck with the guy who's got the puppies, but also sometimes there's just like a pet store down the road and sometimes it's okay to look at the puppies, you know?

Right. 

Lucia: You know, I think that's super aligned with things that we concern ourselves with, with Upworthy, is the last thing we want is to encourage people to put their head in the sand, to Gabe's point, and view the world through a Pollyanna, rose colored glasses way. There are issues. You know, like there are things that we need to be aware of, um, but I also think, you know, giving kids in this case, um, opening their eyes to the possibility, at least, that there are good people in the world as well, um, a counterbalance, counteracting, like just one siloed narrative is just as important.

Um, you know, a lot of the stories in this book have very heavy themes. It's not, it's not all puppies and rainbows. Um, and I think being able to understand that from, you know, some goodness can come out of things that are rooted in hardship. Um, giving kids a more realistic approach of how the world can be difficult and how life can be difficult, but also beautiful things can come from that.

Um, is super important, but I also feel for you as a teacher, I'm not a teacher, you know, and so I can only imagine knowing how much influence you have on young kids, um, and wanting them to be protected, um, would be really hard for sure. Yeah. 

Gabriel: You, you don't want to put yourself at risk, obviously, you know, you need to first and foremost, you got to protect your kids and you got to protect yourself, but there, again, there's a balance, right?

It's kind of like when you think about love, it's like, well, I'm not going to love somebody because I may get hurt. And then you kind of live a closed off life as a result. Um. I think that there are, there is a like a, again, a balance between like being, you know, naive and overly trusting and maybe teaching your kids and teaching yourself because this is something that everyone needs to do to reflect on the goodness in the world, you know, maybe just think back, okay, you know, how, how was I good to people today?

How were people good to me today? How people been good to me in my life? You know, even staying with those moments. Um, Can have a profound effect and, you know, you don't necessarily need to think, well, I didn't get into this stranger's van to help them with their puppies so I'm a bad person. It's like, no, no, no.

That's okay. That's a fine decision you've made. 

Andrea: He's 

Lucia: fine. He is fine. 

Andrea: Right, right. Yeah. It actually, it reminds me of, um, right before it was actually on election day, I posted a video. Um, to my fellow educators saying like, Hey guys, like, regardless of what happens, because at that point we didn't know what the results we're going to be, but.

We, we all knew as a nation, regardless of what the results are, um, we're gonna have some upset kids in our classroom. And so our job as teachers is to be like a positive space, a safe space, just let them feel however they feel about it. Um, and let them know they're going to be okay in the context of like In your classroom, they are, you know, you, you are a safe place for them and, and all of that focusing on the positive.

And when I posted that initially, I didn't get too much pushback, but then later after the results came out, it was very interesting because I got pushback from both sides. Um, I got pushback from people who said like, why wouldn't they feel safe? You know, things are great now. And then other people who were like, things are terrible now.

What, like, how could they possibly feel safe? And so, you know, but really what my message was is. Your classroom should be a safe place. You know, that should be a place where, where kids are able to have that balance of seeing the good that like some people are going to, to be a good safe place for you, regardless of what's going on outside the classroom, regardless of how you feel about the election, you know, it's going to be okay while you're in my class, I'm going to make sure that this place is a good safe place for you.

So, yeah, it has been a Um, and especially, you know, with the content that I create, it's, you know, comedy based and a lot of satire and teacher comedy and stuff like that. But my goal is always to do a lot of what you guys are talking about, where it's, it's giving teachers, like, I, I try very hard not to bash the teaching profession.

I try very hard to never make it seem like I think it's bad to be a teacher, um, but to also recognize some of the struggles. And sometimes that. can be a bit of a balancing act because, um, for people who have had a bad teaching day, they sometimes don't want to hear the positive of that. Um, do you guys ever get any like negative comments about the positive stories that you share or are they pretty, pretty positive?

Gabriel: You know, when you're reaching as many people as we do, um, and sometimes when you're reaching hardly anyone, you're going to get, you know, comments across the spectrum. People can find a reason to, to nitpick anything, um, that is posted and sometimes you can play a game. It's like, find the nice thing on the internet and see why someone said it's bad, you know, like, Oh, you're, you know, this dog is really cute.

Well, you're actually petting it wrong and that's causing it emotional distress. You know, don't pet your dog like that. That's the worst thing you can do. We're lucky because our community has grown around seeing the good, right? And so the folks on Upworthy, uh, in the comment section, which we call the kindest comment section on the internet, um, you know, they, they leap to each other's defense if things are happening, um, and, uh, you know, they kind of do the work for us in terms of, you know, regulating the purpose and point, um, of the page to, to, to share, uh, human decency with each other.

Lucia: Uproarthy is almost a beautiful exception to getting a ton of negativity because the content we put out is rooted in, you know, leading with humanness, like the idea of being human, um, because at the end of the day, we all sort of want the same things, right? It's like safe community for our kids, you know, education, food on the table, um, being able to celebrate the beautiful things in life, you know, young people, old people, pets, all the things.

And that has nothing to do with identity politics. And so it's sort of this refreshing place, so to speak, for these millions of people to come where they know they're not going to be, you know, uh, finger pointed at, and I think on both sides of the political spectrum in this case, it's really important to have a place like that, you know, and so I think that could also be hopefully applied to the classroom as well.

Andrea: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great place for us to take a break. So we will be right back.

Welcome back to those who can't do. Um, so, you know, when I first got this book, my first thought, and I don't know if you guys read this when you were kids, but did you guys ever read a chicken soup for the soul back in the day? Of course, classic. Yeah. And I feel like that, and then they made, they like went crazy with it.

Like, they were like chicken soup for like the, like the left handed artist who lives on whatever street. So like it got really, really, really specific. 

Gabriel: Chicken soup, branded pet food. And you're like, is this chicken soup or is this dog food? 

Andrea: Right. Like all of these different chicken soup for the soul.

Right. And, um, it kind of reminds me of that, but I think the chicken soup stories, I don't think they were. Nonfiction? I don't remember. Um, but it reminds me of that same kind of energy of like little bite sized pieces of positivity that you can kind of put into your day. Um, which I absolutely love. Um, so Upworthy's mission is to shift perspectives and kind of help affect some positive change in the world.

Can you guys tell if this is happening? Are you seeing ways that, you know, Upworthy is causing that change that is kind of the goal? 

Lucia: Absolutely. We've, you know, we have a great, very trusting relationship with our audience. Um, they're very vocal, you know, and, and how they are impacted by the work we do.

We've canvassed our audience over the years around how our work has impacted them and we've We've gotten incredible feedback. That's just been very rewarding to see. So I think something like 98 percent of our respondents said they felt better overall after seeing our content, you know, for a media company, that's kind of an insane stat.

And 90 percent of the respondents said they felt more optimistic about the future. 

Gabriel: And the same amount also said that they felt more inclined to do good in the world and felt that feeling that they wanted to carry with them. Yeah, 

Lucia: right. And so like that, that, those stats. On behalf of like a media company is kind of wild, you know, it goes exactly back to mean world syndrome and the idea of, uh, influencing people's perception and then intention to go out and be the good in the world is just amazing.

Gabriel: This, it's interesting because since the book came out and, you know, also, you know, with the stories that we share on social, people send us DMs a lot and, you know, reading reviews of the book and it's not like, Here is how to solve a gigantic systemic issue from an academic point of view, and here are the, here's the steps that you need to take, you know, but it's about at a very basic level about people, and we get folks reaching out being like, you know, that story about somebody who was struggling with alcoholism and how their life turned around, it really reached me at the right time.

And here's why. Um, or the story about, you know, somebody being seen when they were going through something really difficult from a stranger, like, made me realize that somebody did that for me, and it changes their outlook. And so, it's really hard to say, well, is this going to have a huge societal, you know, impact and change, like, the cultural discussion and how we treat each other on a regular basis?

But, you You can think like, well, if that happens enough on an individual basis, it will have an impact, you know, because ultimately the only thing that we truly have control over. Um, you know, is how we treat people, you know, on a, on a day to day basis. And I think that this book and, you know, what we do is about, you know, treat people, treat people a little, a little better.

And then if we could do that at scale, then, then you can kind of, you know, start living that, create the world you want to see. 

Andrea: Yeah, it reminds me, I can't remember, um, that like parable about the kid who had, I think it was like starfish on the beach and there was like thousands and thousands and he was like throwing the starfish back into the ocean and they're like, you're never going to get them all.

I was like, well, I got, I got those ones. Like it matters to those ones that, that we threw him back in, but it's, it's doing that with like, yeah. Optimism and kindness, which is, you know, something this world I think desperately needs. And you know, with the mean world syndrome thing, do you guys have suggestions for people?

Because I mean, I, for me, I have a hard time because just like you guys, a big part of my job is being online. And so for me, it can get really, and because I'm in the education sphere, which tends to get very politicized and all of that. Um, I've, I can feel the heaviness kind of like start to pull on me after a long day.

Um, do you guys have suggestions for people who are, who are trying to see the positive and the good and want to limit that screen time and all of that of ways that they can do that, um, in, in today's world? 

Gabriel: Yeah, I mean, particularly on social, you know, if you can't, you know, take the time away from it to like recharge, uh, you know, there are steps that you can do, and I've referred to them as the three Bs, which are, you know, beautify, balance, and broaden.

Um, they kind of circle around the same thing, which is, you know, take a little stock of what you're seeing, you know, um, is your feed, is your algorithm, you know, specifically feeding you the stuff that is upsetting you? Um, is there a way to kind of Take a look for the stuff that would inspire you more, um, you know, follow a couple media companies, AdUpworthy, for example, uh, that are sharing, uh, some good stuff out there and see how that affects what's showing up in your feed.

Think about your hobbies, uh, stuff that you want to explore interest in, search that out and start inviting it into your content consumption and it can make a difference, you know. Social media is a tool. You know, and it depends on how we use it. And just like any tool, it can be really powerful at crafting something, or it can be quite dangerous.

Um, of course it's different because it's very addictive in a lot of ways. And so, you know, you have to take that into, um, consideration. into account as well. And so, you know, the balance is key, you know, look for, look for both sides, the stuff that's keeping you informed and the stuff that's keeping you elevated, um, you know, things that are inspiring you to do better and things that are letting you know that you're doing good enough as is and making sure that things aren't tilting too far in one direction or the other, I think can be a healthy way when you're taking stock of your, um, you know, who you're following and how you're engaging.

Lucia: I think also there's something to be said about, you know, taking stock of how you're engaging, your behavior, you know, and how and why you're engaging with social media, you know, is it because you're bored? Is it because you want to stalk your ex boyfriend or girlfriend? Is it because you, I wouldn't recommend?

Um, is it because, you know, you're looking for a laugh? Is it because you want to be doom scrolling? You know, just take sort of like taking a moment to Before you open Instagram, you know, all of our thumbs, like, or maybe just me, but like, I think most people can relate to this, but my thumb automatically goes to Instagram without me even realizing it, and that's kind of disturbing, and so being able to just take a mindful moment and step back, being like, you know, um, why am I doing this, you know, what's the purpose of this, and so, you know, to your point, Andrea, I've started to do this thing where when I open Instagram or TikTok, I try to notice how my body feels and a lot of the time my heart starts to race.

It's just so much information and I don't think we're programmed to be taking in this just avalanche of content all the time. And so I think just taking stock of it. Um, why am I using it? How am I using it? And maybe there's a different choice I can make right now. Maybe I can go outside and like look at a bird and think about how cool it is to look at a bird.

You know what I mean? It's just like, life is very cool outside of your phone. Um, and so making a different choice I think is really helpful for our mental health. 

Gabriel: What's that tip that went viral? It's like the 15 rule. It's like 15 minutes online. 15 minutes for yourself and then 15 years in the forest away from everything.

Andrea: Literally. Honestly though, it is interesting though because it seems like Gen Z, Gen Alpha, they view online consumption in a I think a different way than a lot of millennials and that they a thousand percent recognize much earlier. I think the damaging way that social media is impacting them. Um, they don't feel like they have the tools.

I've done a couple of like workshops with some mental health groups at the different schools I, I visit with high schoolers and stuff. And almost every single one of them will say like social media negatively impacts My mental health, like they know that, um, but they just feel really ill equipped on how to handle that.

And it's hard because it's very much the blind leading the blind because we, as adults, like, like you said, my thumb just immediately goes there. If I want to take a screen break, I literally have to move my phone where I cannot reach it so that I have to at least make the decision to get up and walk over to it.

Otherwise, I'm scrolling for 10 minutes and I don't even realize that I made the choice to pick up my phone. And 10 minutes 

Gabriel: isn't so bad that you should congratulate yourself for like two hours, 

Andrea: right? 10 minutes, two hours. I know. And I, I don't know about you guys, but like, I, so terrible. I won't even look at the screen times that it tells me, like how much time I've spent on the screen, um, primarily because like with it being largely my job, a lot of times I'm, I'm not scrolling that much.

I usually am looking at the feedback from something I've posted, responding to stuff, all of that. Um, But I know for, I, I teach an honors class here at Indiana State where I teach about social media and the way it influences culture and business and morality. And one of the first things I have them do is look at their screen time.

So I won't do it, but I make them do it and they have to report it on a weekly basis, how long they're spending. And it, it is amazing how, how shocked some of them are that, I mean, some of them are on their phones. It's like 17 hours a day and, and depending on what content it is that they are putting in their brains.

Cause a lot, for a lot of them, what they're doing is they're playing something on YouTube and then it's just automatically playing the next thing. 

And 

because the way the algorithm works, it's all going to be very similar, POVs, right? Like it's probably going to have the same perspective on the world and all of that kind of stuff.

And I don't know about you guys, but I saw a big shift during COVID when we were all stuck at home, that those algorithms got really honed in on whatever perspective we had to the point where it seemed like it was, you know, Like I, and I really do try and do this where I try and make sure that I don't unfollow someone just because they voice a perspective or a like political opinion that I disagree with because I want to hear that.

Um, because these days, if someone like in real life, in person, if someone was to like voice a political opinion and they weren't sure how other people in the room felt about it, I would be shocked. It didn't used to be that way, but now I would kind of be surprised if someone said it in real life.

Somewhat people are still willing to say it. And so I try and make sure to have, have that piece kind of included. So for me, that's, that's been part of it is like allowing different voice. So it's not as much of, of an echo chamber. Um, and when you guys were compiling all of these stories, did you guys see any major themes that kind of helped you organize the book as you put it together?

Gabriel: They kind of organically started grouping themselves, um, obviously teachers was a huge one. Everybody wanted to talk about a teacher that they'll never forget, just thousands and thousands. And, um, it was so nice to, to, to see that grow. So that became its own chapter. And then, you know, um, there were stories about people traveling, you know, acts of, uh, You know, human connection and decency that they visited abroad, uh, that they, that they experienced when they were visiting abroad.

Um, and then stories about kids, you know, just like kids say the darndest things. And sometimes it's a very profound and changes the way you see the world. Um, or kids being there at a really critical time where you need their perspective on something. And then, Like Lucia pointed out, you know, some of the very heavier themes, folks having an interaction with someone when they desperately needed someone to be there for them, when they were at their lowest, or when the stakes were really high.

And then I think one of the most interesting ones is a chapter that we call, you know, It's the little things, right? And these are just like very tiny, You know, things that you might not even think twice that hold a profound impact for somebody. You know, uh, something small that you might not even think twice of if you were the person who did it for someone, but it stayed with someone else forever.

Uh, and so, I love that one, um, because it kind of reminds me that when you're moving about the world, every interaction that you have with somebody is a chance to do something that may stay with them forever, that may become a well of support that they draw upon at some point, and you may never even know, but it's an empowering thing to know that like, you have that kind of agency, um, to impact somebody's life in a positive way, even if it's in a totally, you know, what may seem to you in an insignificant way.

Lucia: It could be, you know, we have a whole story based around someone who, um, had just gone through cancer treatment and her hair was just, you know, she went through radiation and her hair was just growing back. And these girls, she stumbled upon a, you know, a restaurant or something where like, cute haircut, you know, something like, oh, I love your hair.

And it just like sunk in, in a way that spiritually restored her. And for those girls, it's like, You know, they had no idea, they probably, that's just like a cute compliment you'd give on the street, um, because you feel that way and it does, it's not a huge deal, it seems very innocuous, so, there's totally opportunities to do that every day, yeah.

Andrea: Yeah, are there any of the stories that you guys collected that in particular really kind of stuck with you and, and shifted kind of how you saw the world? 

Gabriel: Yeah. I mean, in line with what I was saying about, uh, uh, you know, the small stuff that stays with you, the, the story that ends the book is called, uh, Curly Fries.

Um, and it's about a young man who's in the military and he's coming back to the base On leave, you know, he's making the long journey back away from his home, away from his family, and he's just not feeling great, you know, he'd rather be at home than to return to the base, and he's so emotionally drained, and he stops at this, you know, truck stop, diner, and he's wearing, I'm sorry, he sees a guy wearing a shirt that says, Here.

Curly Fries, uh, which has, you know, Curly from Moe, the Three Stooges, and, uh, he's, you know, putting a fork in an electric socket, and it showed his hair kind of like, you know, frazzle out, and it just says Curly Fries, and he laughs, he thinks it's a very, very funny thing to see, and he just compliments the guy, and says, hey, that's a funny shirt.

The two connect. They have a conversation, the guy ends up giving him kind of directions on a route to take, um, to drive instead of the way he was gonna go, and that kind of change in the journey that he took changed how he saw himself, how he saw life, how he saw, you know, America, the country, and everything, and throughout all the You know, uh, times that lay before him, really difficult times.

It was something that he was able to go back to when he really, really, really needed it. And every time I read that story, it really hits me and makes me tear up and realize, just realize that truth that like, wow, um, the smallest interaction can be the most important thing for somebody. 

Andrea: Yeah, it is. It is.

It's kind of like a kindness butterfly effect of like, we just, we, we never know. I, I know for me, I had, um, when I was engaged, my husband and I got married super young. I was 21 when I got married and he was a Marine and we, we, we were in a relationship Of course, we're completely broke. I didn't, neither of us had a degree.

He was, it was 2008. So the economy was garbage. Like it was super hard. And you know, I remember standing in line trying to get the taxes for all of the groomsmen. And, um, we had kind of been told that one of the family members was going to pay for it. And then I get there and they're like, well, no one's paying.

Pay for it. And it was the day before the wedding. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. And I call my then fiance. I was like, I don't know what to do. And I was like in tears. And I'm like, I don't have any money in my account. And he's like, well, maybe we can, you know, I don't know. You know, I called my dad and he said he didn't have the money and, you know, and I'm like, okay.

And while I was on the phone crying, someone who was standing in line behind me went and paid for it and then left. And And, uh, it was one of those things where he, and he left a note that said, and he heard like me talking about the fact that my husband was a Marine and all that. And like, he wrote like, Semper Fi, congratulations.

And, and I have no idea what this person looked like. I have no idea like how much they caught, but I came back and it was, it was like 500. And, uh, You know, for somebody to do something so kind because they see this, you know, panicking bride standing over there trying to like, I wasn't his problem. And he just decided to do something that was so, so kind and didn't stick around to hear any appreciation or anything like that.

And You know, it's been now 16 years since that happened. And I still think about that. And I still, you know, if I were standing in a tux shop and I was hearing a bride breakdown, you better believe I would jump at the chance to try and help someone like that. Because, you know, those are exactly the kinds of things that do shift your perspective of like, well, that's their problem, as opposed to like, what, what could I do?

Like, could I do something here to, to make a difference? And I think that's incredibly powerful. Lucia, did you have any that stood out to you? 

Lucia: Well, I was going to say, first of all, we need to find that guy. It's like our favorite thing to reunite people, so which we've done, so that would be really fun.

It's amazing. And I love that, you know, he provide, that gesture provided a well of inspiration in you, you know, and now it's had that ripple effect on you to, to be that person for someone else. So I really love that. Yes, I have a story in the book called. Her favorite story, rather, called The Front Porch, um, by a woman named Lynn, who we've now developed a wonderful friendship with, um, which has been awesome.

Um, but long story short, she had a very, um, beautiful, loving relationship with her grandmother, and her grandmother used to sit on her front porch every day and, you know, greet Lynn when she came home. Her grandmother ended up getting sick and passing, unfortunately. And at her memorial service, Lynn runs into one of her grandmother's best friends, this guy named Fred, who's super, you know, outgoing and funny, charismatic, and when Lynn leaves the memorial service, um, or sorry, at the memorial service, she says to Fred, you know, this is so upsetting and I'm grieving, but what I'm really Uh, dreading is driving past my grandmother's house and not seeing her on the front porch anymore.

It's just going to be so upsetting, very, um, hard for me. When she leaves the memorial service, she's gearing up for it, holding her breath, very upset already, preemptively. And when she drives past the front porch, Fred is sitting on the front porch. And what he says to her is, It didn't want you to come home to an empty porch.

Andrea: It's 

Lucia: gonna make me cry. I know, right? I'm like, I've cried so much already and it hits me every time. Um, but, uh, you know, it's just this intrinsic sense of empathy and altruism we all have. Like there have been studies done about it, that we have this implicit, um, sense of wanting to help when we see someone struggling.

Whether it's on the street, whether it's a stranger, whether it's family, whether it's a family friend, et cetera, it kind of comes out organically. And so I think being able to understand, you know, I think Fred is a beautiful, exceptional human being, but perhaps he's not that exceptional. You know, I think there are a lot of people that would, um, want to jump in when they see someone struggling in that way and know that it's like actually not that hard to do.

Gabriel: Yeah, and it's funny when I think about all the stories in the book, there are, you know, a lot that jump out to me, but it's really about, you know, the kind of holistic picture of the human spirit. That it paints, you know, more so than like, Oh, like one story or this story or that story. And there will be those that particularly, you know, there is a story in there, uh, Andrea, about a girl who has a dress bought for her at a time when she really needs it, that you might be like, Oh, this reminds me of the time that somebody did something similar, um, for me.

But the fact that they all just weave together to give you this like view of humanity that you might not get otherwise is really. Where it's at in terms of the feeling that it instills. And that's what I've taken away from the process of gathering these stories and, you know, working with a wonderful team of people to bring them to life.

And, um, with Lucia, it's just, uh, that's the real power of it. 

Andrea: Yeah, definitely. And on that note, if there's kind of one thing that you're hoping that readers take away from reading the book, what do you think that would be? 

Lucia: You know, I hope this book gives people a sense of restorative calm that we're not getting right now.

Um, you know, reverting back to when I like read, This book, to your point, I feel like I'm back in the 90s. You know, it's like 

Gabriel: a very optimistic time. 

Lucia: Yeah. This, this beautiful, you know, moment that we can all give ourselves to calm down for a second and just embrace the quiet, um, and revel in it almost because it's very centering, you know, um, to me, it's like, that's more centering than reading, going on like a wellness account on Instagram and just reading a ton of advice, you know?

Andrea: Yeah. 

Lucia: So, I think it's that, you know, getting offline in combination with this perspective shift that Gabe is talking about. We've woven together this tapestry of real stories. They're not, you know Uh, nonfiction. This is not, you know, some fantasy world, um, that they're sourced from. It's from our world. And for the 101 stories in the, this book, there are thousands more.

So hopefully it'll give some people a sense of hope about the future of humanity. 

Gabriel: I consider success if one person reads this and feels empowered. To, um, take the feeling that they get from the book, take the feeling that they get from remembering, um, a person in their life that was good to them, and carrying that out into the world, um, because I think that just even a tiny change on that can have a huge, a huge impact.

I hope that people out there have that experience, and I think it's a worthwhile experience, and I think it's needed right now when our senses are being assaulted by, um, a narrative about, um, Humanity and about people, that's not great. And I think, you know, the truth is, you know, we wouldn't necessarily be here if we weren't good to each other at times, you know, um, it's very hard to have things as complicated, um, as they are in terms of the world that we've built without caring about each other to a certain extent.

So, um, I just hope that, uh, that comes across when people spend some time with it and then it has a positive psychological effect. 

Andrea: Yeah, definitely. And it is so empowering, right? Because for a lot of us, we feel really powerless in what's going on. And every time, you know, you read the news and you're like, well, what can I do about that?

Um, but this story points out like, The things you can do, you know, the things that are in our hands as just an individual. Um, and I, for, for teachers, I think the way that this book could be used to spark discussion to, you know, when I taught I would have first chapter Fridays sometimes, or I would just read the first 10 minutes of class.

And these stories are a perfect way to do that, where you're, you know, you're. Basically just reading something really positive about something that people did that was good, you know, and, and like you said, that is something that is so very needed right now and very powerful. 

Gabriel: Yeah. It's nice to know that like, uh, you know, when you were moving about the world, there is nobody telling you in a moment what to do.

There's no talking head saying, do this. There's no, you know, uh, politician saying this is how you need to behave with this person. There's no algorithm deciding what you do in the moment. It's just you and a person and a moment of time. And I think that we can forget that, um, sometimes. So just to be reminded of it 

Lucia: has 

Gabriel: been good for me.

Lucia: I think also just recognizing that goodness is all around us if you look for it. You know, I'd venture to guess that in your day to day, even, you know, and I'm like a geek about this, but like in your day to day, even just like smiling at someone or like holding the door open for someone, it's like, it's commonplace.

You don't even think about it. And I think that's worth, uh, Celebrating, even internally. We don't need to like, applaud, you know, applaud everyone. And 

Gabriel: for teachers, you know, 

Lucia: like, if 

Gabriel: you need to pick me up, teachers out there, uh, read, read the stories about the work that you do every day and how it stays with people forever.

The stories in here about Teachers who were inspired to be teachers because of somebody in their life. I mean, it's just talk about the most powerful thing in the world. That kind of like, um, connection in that way that, you know, just ripples and affects so many students and so many people is just such a great reminder, um, for, you know, who are the people in society that we should be appreciating the most.

Lucia: And a lot of these stories are from, you know, 30 years, 20, 30 years ago. It's like, not like these blips in time. It's like, I remember my teacher, you know, the teachers that impacted my life, etc, etc. So a lot of huge, huge props to you and the whole community. 

Andrea: That's awesome. And so one of the things we always do in the podcast is I, I do my, what are those kids doing on Fridays on Instagram and my stories and a vast majority are things that are just heinous activities by the youth, right?

Um, but in the spirit of having you guys on today, I did pick out one that was very, very sweet. Um, thank you. Which, uh, somebody said that one student was really distraught because his friend was gone that day and he was going to be gone the whole following week and a couple of other boys in that class asked if they could switch their assigned seats to sit next to that kid and help him stay on track and get his work done and everything, um, so that he wouldn't Feel alone while his really good friend was gone.

And you would think that's elementary, but it was actually a high schooler that did it. It was in a high school classroom, um, and the teacher submitted it and, uh, was just really proud of like having, like, especially with kids when you're so yourself focused that they were able to kind of see that need and, and fill it.

So even, even in those, those high schooler and middle school classrooms, those little moments they're still there for us to, so, um, 

Gabriel: okay. So 

Andrea: before. Before I let you guys go, um, where can people find you? Um, where can they find the book? All that good stuff. 

Gabriel: Yeah, we're, uh, you know, at Upworthy across all socials, um, upworthy.

com to read the wonderful editorial that we're putting out. Um, every day in the book is available at booksellers and retailers everywhere. Um, your local bookstore. 

Lucia: Support your indie bookshop. That's right. 

Gabriel: And at the library, you know, shout out librarians and school librarians. Go pick it up at the library.

Andrea: Thank you guys so much for coming on. This was so much fun. Thank you so much, Andrea, 

Lucia: for hosting us. 

Gabriel: Yeah. What a pleasure to have this conversation. Thank you. 

Andrea: Yeah, we'll be right back.

Welcome back to those who can't do. Um, I had so much fun chatting with them and I got to tell you guys, the book is just, it's so beautiful in The descriptions of human kindness, you know, like they, like they talked about, it is that kind of like just positive light that sometimes we need in our day. Um, and I really did love when I could find something that was kind of bite sized I could read with my class.

Um, I would do first chapter Fridays a lot of times, but for a lot of you guys, especially if you're not English teachers, maybe you, you know, are just looking for a different way of starting your class. Um, and this would be a fun, like five to 10 minutes, uh, to do. Read for you to discuss and if you are an English teacher You can always find a way to kind of wrap it into the curriculum as well and a little bit of light and happiness and positivity I think goes a long way and especially in a world where kids are being told that They are, you know, powerless.

This is a way of reminding them that they do have quite a bit of power to influence and power to impact those around them, even if it is in very small ways. Because, you know, as we, we heard from Gabe, you know, it was something that happened when he was in kindergarten that he decided to include in this book.

And it was from a teacher, which, you know, as we I think we know intellectually sometimes as teachers that we're having a greater impact than we are seeing immediately. Sometimes we got to be reminded though, because the days are long, right? So, um, having access to, to books like these, um, can make a really big impact.

And just as a reminder, the book is, um, called Good People, Stories from the Best of Humanity. And I highly recommend it. I really loved it. Um, if you guys have thoughts about what we talked about today, or suggestions on who you would like to have come on, There are many ways to contact us. You can contact me, andrea at human content.

com or at educatorandrea on TikTok and Instagram, Facebook. Um, or you can kick it with the whole human content podcast family on Instagram and TikTok at human content pod. There's an S there as well. And thank you so much to those amazing listeners who have left feedback. If you would like to leave some feedback, go on to like a podcast, really wherever you listen to the podcast and leave a little review and I will read it here and give you a little shout out.

Um, and it absolutely makes my day when I get to hear from you guys and hear how much you are enjoying the podcast. Um, if you want to catch the full video episode, they're up every week on YouTube at Educator Andrea. Thank you so much for listening. I am your host, Andrea Forkham. A very special thank you to our guest co hosts today, Gabriel Reilich and Lucia Nell.

Our executive producers are Andrea Forkham, Aron Korney, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke. Our editor is Andrew Sims. Our engineer is Jason Portizo. Our music is by Omer Ben Zvi. Our recording location is the Indiana State Bi College of Education. To learn more about our Those Who Can't Do's disclaimer and ethics policy, and submission, verification, and licensing terms, you can go to podcasterandrea.

com. Those Who Can't Do is a human content production.

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