Managing Bias While Addressing Real-World Issues in Education with Sharon McMahon

Andrea: Welcome to Those Who Can't Do. I am your host, Andrew Forkham, and I am very, very, very excited about our guest today. Um, it is Sharon McMahon, also known as Sharon Says So, America's Government Teacher and host of the award winning podcast, Here's Where It Gets Interesting. Sharon, thank you so much for coming on today.

Sharon: Oh, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm excited to talk. 

Andrea: So when did you move into kind of full time being America's government teacher? 

Sharon: Well, it started in, uh, the end of 2020, but I really started doing this more as a full time job in early 2021. So it's been several years now. 

Andrea: Okay, because I have a vivid, vivid memory of, I think it was my little sister sending me your Instagram profile, and you were sharing data about the spread rates from the CDC of COVID, and I just, I remember really specifically being so impressed with the way that you shared information in a time that was like, Just very fraught, you know, like everyone, everyone was very suspicious.

People really struggled with trusting where information was coming from. And a lot of times people were sharing information online that wasn't vetted or anything like that. And you just so clearly explained where you were getting information and. You do this all the time, but, and just, this is just for people who may not be as familiar with you.

One of my favorite things that you do is you ask people from all sides, how they feel about a topic, and then you present the information in a way that is. not inflammatory. And I don't know of anybody else that does that. How did you come to, to kind of build your audience and your community in, in a way that is kind of welcoming to people from both sides of the aisle?

Thank you. Thanks 

Sharon: for, thanks for that. I appreciate that. And, you know, it's honestly from my time in the classroom. Right? Like, uh, most teachers actually care a lot about, uh, critical thinking. Uh, most teachers would rather have students who disagree with their viewpoint, but who can think critically about it and build a legitimate case for why they think what they think.

I, I don't know any teachers. Who wouldn't rather have a really well written and researched paper that arrives at maybe a different opinion than they personally hold than a paper that is just like slapped together, parroting talking points, uh, that is relatively poorly supported. So, uh, to me, it's not, it's actually not a stretch.

It's a skill that I have learned in the classroom. It's a skill that America's teachers are using on a daily basis. Helping people. Learn how to critically think. Uh, and unfortunately the rhetoric on the internet, uh, rewards the opposite. The rhetoric on the internet rewards, uh, inflammatory, unsupported sensationalism.

That's, that's the reward cycle, is, uh, you know, when you post something about, you know, well, actually, so and so is a lizard person, you know, and everybody's like, what? Oh my! Re share! I had no idea! You know what I mean? Like, that is, that drives the dopamine circuits in your brain and makes you want to do more of the same.

So, the, but the opposite is true in, in most classrooms. Right? Like if you write on a paper, blah, blah, blah is a lizard person. You ain't getting a good grade on that. Right? Like cite your sources. Where are you getting this? Right. Like the opposite is true in a classroom. So anyway, um, that's how I learned to do it.

It's just many years of, uh, teaching government in, especially in the Washington DC area where I taught for a long time, uh, where a lot of those kids, their parents work in government and you have to just be very cognizant of. Uh, all of the different myriad of viewpoints that are coming into your classroom, helping people think critically about those in a way that is, uh, that allows children to go home and have important conversations with their parents, but not feel like my teacher hates me because we disagree about the following topic.

Andrea: Yeah, yeah. And so on that same note, I'd love to hear what are some of the ways that you share about or you used to share about current events in the classroom in a way that feels very unbiased, because I taught journalism for a few years, and so I, I remember having a really hard time finding, like, I would have them look at the news, but just simply choosing your news outlet was very fraught.

You know, with a lot of belief systems, and if it's not the thing that their grandfather watches 24 7, then it's the other side, and they, you know, get really stressed about that. So, what are some ways that history teachers and government teachers can kind of look at current events in a way that, that doesn't feel as fraught with bias?

Sharon: It's a great question, and it's a question that I know a lot of teachers, uh, wrestle with because they feel like Anytime they bring up any current event, there's some group waiting in the wings, a group of parents or whatever, waiting to pounce on them to make sure that, like, if you said something that I disagree with, well, you're trying to indoctrinate my children.

And so it can cause some teachers to shy away from even talking about, uh, important issues that are important to talk about in the context of government and history because they feel like People are out to, uh, you know, make an example of them or to try to get them in trouble in some way. So, one of the things that I think is, is important to do is actually teaching students to analyze news sources, rather than trying to tell them exactly which ones they should listen to.

Because there is no news source that deserves your undying allegiance. Not one. Not a single news source deserves, uh, your, um, for you to listen to. Not critically examine what it is that they are saying. So, some news sources, of course, uh, have a better reputation for, uh, not having a heavy bias towards one side or the other.

Some work harder to, uh, rein it in and to, you know, write the facts. Uh, and, and those are News sources that can be independently evaluated as like, this does not contain a lot of inflammatory rhetoric. I think it's important, uh, media literacy is a very important topic, especially in secondary education today.

In a variety of disciplines, media literacy is important in English classrooms. It's important in journalism classrooms, other language arts topics. It's important in history. It's important in government. So understanding the difference, Between a bias and a lie is an important concept, uh, I think to teach students, and also an important concept to teach adults on the internet.

Those are, they're, those are not the same thing. Bias and lie do not mean the same thing. So I love to give examples of how we can see what the bias of a source is, and does that mean that they are lying about it? So when students can recognize. a bias and also understand what the facts are, that those are sometimes two very different things, um, that's an important life skill that they can, yeah, they can learn and take with them.

Andrea: Yeah, I think that's a great point. Something I also noticed is just with online, and I get, I get so frustrated on times where, you know, occasionally you will share some of the DMs that you receive. Um, which are so foul, there's so much nuance in a lot of the topics we're looking at today, and so much unwillingness to acknowledge that nuance with, with topics that are, you know, incredibly important to people.

I know a lot of people that are single issue voters, and maybe if they don't, you know, like the candidate that they're going to be voting for, but they're like, listen, I'm a single issue voter. And because of the way the internet works, and like you said, it's rewarding that sensationalism. People are making these assumptions that if you have one belief on one side, then you must fall into that kind of chasm of all of these other beliefs.

Um, is there a way you think as teachers that we can kind of Help students kind of look at that and see the nuance in a world where they're constantly being told there is no nuance You are either this way or you are evil and you want like the destruction of America 

Sharon: It's another great question. And I'm glad that people are talking about this because this is something that I Think is incredibly important to understand that very often The assumptions that we make about people who are different, who have different beliefs than we do, or who come from a different cultural background, uh, or who have a different religious faith than we do, we make assumptions about them based on our own biases.

So just using an example of a very hot button issue, um, let's say, uh, we're gonna discuss, uh, uh, matters of abortion that are in the news, right? Like, Supreme Court case is about abortion, and I think it's an important topic to be able to, uh, discuss with high school students. Like, this is in the news, here's why it matters.

Um, not from an ideological viewpoint of you should be pro choice or pro life, but here is what the Supreme Court said, here is how that is gonna play out around the country. That's, that's an important education to receive. People who, uh, view themselves as pro life may tend to think that people who are pro choice love murdering babies, and they want to see as many dead as possible, and they want to be able to kill them on a whim.

Uh, and in reality, people who are pro choice will completely disagree with that characterization. They will say, your assumptions about me and my viewpoints are not right. And on the opposing side, people who are pro choice think that people who are pro life are really just interested in controlling women's bodies, that they are out to try to take away women's choices in life and send them back to the stone age when they had no control over their own reproduction.

And most people who are pro life will say, that is not a fair characterization of what I actually think and feel. So, One of the things that I think is important to learn as a society and as to help children learn as teachers is to stop making decisions about what you might think on a topic based on assumptions about other people that may or may not be true.

And where are we getting these assumptions from? We're making these assumptions based on our own That's a lot of people who have their own viewpoints. Not based from not based on actual, uh, real world examples, not based on what people actually think and feel. So I would, of course, broach this topic, uh, with a much more, so if I were teaching this in a classroom, I wouldn't dive right into abortion, I would bring it up with a much more kind of like made up, Silly, neutral example, uh, you know, that doesn't actually pertain to anybody in the classroom.

We can talk about Martians or people who believe the moon is made of green cheese or something that's just obviously false that nobody actually thinks that, um, and teach students how to, how to actually not make decisions based on assumptions that you, that may or may not actually be. Real. So, I think that is, that's a part of what drives polarization, right?

Is these assumptions that we have about the character of somebody else. And if they believe X, then they must therefore be, you know, A, B, and C as well. And that's often not, not real. 

Andrea: Yeah. And you know, it's, it's really interesting too, because when, when people fall into that and they fall into all those assumptions, they then stop listening to the discussion because then it's, they've, They've kind of othered the person that they're talking to out of having a valid perspective.

Like, you believe A, therefore, I don't, it doesn't matter what you believe about anything else. One of the main reasons that I really avoid taking political stances on my social media and all that, because I know that if I took a strong political stance, endorsed a candidate, did something like that, then anybody who is on the internet.

That, that side, also like that candidate, would love me forever. But if you're on the other side, anything I have to say about education, about teaching, any of that stuff would be gone. Like, they would not care. Yeah. They wouldn't care what I had to say. I would have all these other attributes and all these other things cast on me.

And it's, it's really scary that, you know, ideally, we would all be able to say, you know, here's, you know, where I stand on these issues and still be able to, to sit down and have a conversation and. Like, be able to come to some sort of agreement on other topics. I remember when I was in high school, I felt like that was very possible.

And it's, it's gotten further and further away from that. Why do you think that is? Why do you think it's so hard for us now to be able to say like, well, cause I remember even like, hearing about, like, Bush and Clinton would, like, go golfing together, even though they were on other ends of the political spectrum.

Where, why do you think we're kind of where we're at right now? 

Sharon: Yeah, that's a million dollar question, and it's a very multifaceted answer, right? Lots of people like to just pin it on, like, it's the internet, it's social media, um, and that's undoubtedly a factor of it. Uh, again, that dopamine reward cycle.

Um, I do think that As the United States political system has fundamentally changed over the last 10 years or so, um, this, this is going to be a very pivotal moment in, in, uh, historians of the future. You know, like we, we look at the years leading up to the Civil War, like we look at the 1870s, or I'm sorry, the 1850s as being like, Look at what was happening in the country in the 1850s.

It is no wonder we had a civil war in the 1860s. And no, no, I'm not saying we're going to have a civil war, but I am saying that there are pivotal moments in history that we can point to. We can look at the 1930s. Europe, 1930s America, and see why World War II happened. This is going to be a moment, this time period, is going to be highly, highly studied in the future.

And where we go from here is going to be an important moment that we study in the future. So some of it is absolutely social media. Some of it is the political system, the types of political candidates and the viewpoints that those candidates have given voice to, uh, some on both sides of the aisle, no question, uh, that have legitimized people's, you know, a lot of people have deep seated, uncharitable thoughts about another group that they know is socially unacceptable to give voice to.

Right? It's not socially acceptable, uh, to say that somebody is fat and ugly. And so consequently, we avoid doing that, right? Even if we might think it, right? Hopefully you don't. Hopefully you're not. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, we might think like, ugh. Gross, when we see somebody walk past, but we know it's not the right thing to do to say that, or to make a face, or to be like, ugh.

And so, there are people who have those same kinds of deep seated thoughts about other groups of people. About people who might fall into a certain political camp. About people from a certain nationality. Uh, and Some political candidates have legitimized voicing those opinions instead of being like, Oh, I'm going to keep that to myself.

And so that has also exacerbated the rhetoric, uh, that is present in our houses of worship. It's present in our schools. It's obviously present on the worldwide web, uh, and in our offices, like every place that humans are, that has. been heightened. So all of these things and more, of course there's more, are contributing to this sense of, um, you know, algorithms are a big part of this too.

But it's all contributing to the sense of like, what is wrong with us? Right? Like, I think a lot of people feel exactly that way. Like, what is wrong with us? And yet. It feels almost impossible to get out of it yourself. Feels almost impossible to not be surrounded by it and to not watch the takedown videos of some political candidate that you hate.

It, it feels almost, it's, it's almost like a borderline addiction at this point to some people. 

Andrea: Yeah, it's so funny because I, again, I, I get my news from a few different sources, but I don't like watching streaming news, like the 24 hour news cycle. I don't, I don't enjoy watching that, but I was walking past because my husband loves it.

And so I was walking past and they were talking about the Bayer thing with RFK. And I sat down and was just like, this is, I can, you know what, I am getting engaged in this because it didn't stress me out. I wasn't, it didn't like fill me with existential dread. I was like, okay, like. He found a dead bear.

He, he, that, what an insane story. Like, just, I'm just gonna leave it here 

Sharon: with this bicycle in Central Park. It didn't feel personal to you, Andrea, right? Like, you didn't feel like you needed to do something about it. You don't feel like I'm supposed to really be like up in arms about this story. It felt like something, and I know exactly what you're talking about.

It felt like something you can be like, that is weird. That's a weird story. It's just weird. And he acknowledges it's weird. We collectively are like, that's weird. Um, yes. And so you didn't feel like, oh no, if I'm on the wrong side of the RFK bear story, my mom won't invite me to Thanksgiving. Right? Like you didn't feel that sense of like polarization.

We all collectively felt the same thing. 

Andrea: Yeah, exactly. And I think, I think that's a great insight too is that so much of the news we consume feels very antagonistic. Yes. Where like when you watch it and you're consuming the news, you're placing yourself on the spectrum. And like, like you said, like people, people's families are not getting together on the holidays.

Now, because of all of this stuff that is happening politically. And for me as an educator, I feel this weight, this heavy weight of responsibility of being like, okay, look, I, all of these kids, all the, well, now I teach college, but all of these young adults are coming into my classroom and they're seeing the same news as me.

They're, you know, on their, on their algorithm, seeing whatever it is on opposite ends of the spectrum. And, you know, it's my job to work with these future teachers now and try and give them some, some sort of guidance of how to go into the classroom with. These, these young kids and still be hopeful, you know, and still find reasons to serve.

And for me, what I've found is like, I, when I watch too much of the news, that's very antagonistic, I get very discouraged and I feel very helpless. And I think that that's the case for a lot of people. There's people who like, who watch and they're like, okay, now I'm going to go to a rally or I'm going to go and I'm going to help this candidate hopefully get elected.

And then there's other people. Like, generally, like me, that tend to ostrich a little bit. Like, I stick my head in the sand because it makes me to feel too helpless. Do you think that there is a way that we, because I, I don't necessarily think that people who make it their whole personality to be on one side of the aisle are doing much, like, Sometimes they're doing more harm than good.

I think when, when that is, they are no longer to communicate, able to communicate with their parents because their parents voted for somebody different than they did. Um, do you think that there is a way for people to find, kind of find that middle where we can find it? Yeah. It's a great opportunity for you to come back as a society and unify again.

I keep hearing that on the news, like, Oh, this candidate said this and that was very divisive and this candidate said that and we think they were trying to be unifying with that, you know? So I know it's something that's kind of on everyone's minds. And the way 

Sharon: that you feel is not unusual at all. I hear that from literally thousands of people on a daily basis, where they're like, you know, burn this whole thing to the ground.

There's no hope for tomorrow. You know what I mean? It is, it's very easy to get overwhelmed because We now have access to the entirety of human knowledge, and we hold it in our hand, when at no time in human history has that ever been true. Right now. Like our great great grandmothers were not We're not out there being like, well, I better form an educated opinion on whether it's okay for the son of an assassinated attorney general to dump a bear in Central Park, right?

Like my, our great great grandmothers felt no such responsibility to form an opinion on every single topic, nor did they even know what the topics were. They maybe got the newspaper. Maybe got the newspaper. They maybe read part of it. Maybe. Uh, and you know, as the, as society progressed, they maybe watched a 30 minute news broadcast every day.

They maybe saw a newsreel at when they went to the cinema, but there was no obligation in their mind to like, become aware of everything that was happening everywhere in the world. And we have decided. very recently in human history, that it is in fact our job to know everything that is happening everywhere in the world.

Um, and I would, I would challenge that assumption. I, and I'm not advocating to like be uninformed, ignore suffering. That's not what I'm saying, but I am saying that The entirety of humanity, human society has evolved to be local, to care about what is happening in your neighborhood, to care about what's happening in your state or maybe even your whole country.

Um, and again, I'm not saying pretend that other bad things are not occurring, but it's never been a single person's personal responsibility to form opinions on everything that is occurring in the world. I would argue that the human brain is not equipped to do that. I would, I would, I would argue that we are violating our fundamental human nature by being asked to form opinions on literally everything that's happening in the world.

Um, I think it is actually more intellectually honest and more, um, you know, beneficial to society to say, I don't have enough information on that to make an informed opinion a much greater percentage of the time. Maybe there are topics that you are well educated on that you deeply care about, matters related to education, your mayor race, you know, like whatever it is, um, and there are topics that you are uniquely equipped.

to be educated on and to educate other people on. Um, but does that mean that you need to, is it your job to help arrange the shipping schedules for the Suez Canal? Right? Like, is that your job? Is it all of our job? No, that's somebody else's job. Right, right. Um, and that's not to say the people who live near the Suez Canal don't matter, or that people who work on boats don't matter.

Of course that's not true. It's just that we all have an important, integral role to play in our communities, and it is actually not just okay, but actually desirable and beneficial for us each to play our own integral role and to let other people worry about the shipping routes in the Suez Canal.

That's somebody else's job. Okay. I literally do not know how to operate an airplane. I cannot be involved in that. That's not me. Right? I get really bad motion sickness. I'm not going to fly an F 16. I cannot be involved in how to maintain airplanes. That's not on me. I have other talents and skills. 

Andrea: Yeah, that's 

Sharon: not it.

Andrea: And I, I think that's so spot on too, because whenever, um, you know, I have family members very upset about politics and stuff like that. And I'm like, I, I. I have to go and I have to teach a class of kids tomorrow and or a class of young adults tomorrow and I, my job is to try and make them as prepared as possible to enter the classroom to teach these other kids and make our society better through an educated mass of people, right?

Like, that's all I can do. Like, I cannot control the vitriol online. I cannot control any of that. Like, this is, this is the piece where I feel like I'm making a difference, you know? 

Sharon: That's right. And 

Andrea: I, I think it's really beautiful to think about it in that way because I know for me, like, I spiral and I start thinking like, oh my gosh, like, what, what kind of a world are my kids going to grow up in?

What are they going to see as like what their, you know, priorities are in society and all of that. And I don't know that that's, like you said, I don't know that it's very beneficial to spiral out like that because I, I don't know. I do end up worrying about, like, well, the Supreme Court's justices, how many do we have?

Are they going to add more? Like, as if anyone is going to ask me how many we should have, like, I, which ironically I feel like on social media now, there is a push for content creators with larger platforms to make political stands. Sure. Um, and to, uh, Use their influence. 

Sharon: People want, people want to push them to use your influence.

Andrea: Yes, exactly. And, and that whole piece, I feel like it, I, because I, I very intentionally use my influence in my corner, right? So like my, my corner is education. I advocate for education, for low classroom sizes and resources for teachers and all of that kind of stuff. Yeah. But what is your take on And it's generally TikTok that I've seen it the most.

Um, social media and people pushing influencers to make very strong stances on super nuanced topics. 

Sharon: It's, it is really challenging to navigate as a social media, like as a content creator. It very, very much is. Um, this is what I keep coming back to. A few little things that I keep clinging to. Um, Number one, arguing on the internet is not activism.

Arguing on the internet is not activism. Me getting in the comments and being like, well, Chad, actually, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Guess what? The world is not, is not better now. Yeah. No children have eaten. Nobody's home has been saved from a fire. You know, like no good things have occurred because I argued with Chad in the comments.

And I think so often people feel like arguing online is doing something productive because it's what they know how to do. And it gives them that dopamine reward cycle is to be like, yeah, look, I got 872 likes on my comment. I made a difference. Do you know what I mean? No, you didn't. You made absolutely no difference.

I'm sorry. Nobody, nobody's belly is full tonight because you wrote that comment. So that's the first thing is that, um, Arguing on the internet is not activism. And I regularly have to remind myself of that, and I think it's a lesson that we should teach students, too. Like, that's actually not what activism is.

Imagine if Martin Luther King spent all his time replying to Chad on Instagram. Right. You know what I mean? Actually, Pam, I'm sorry, that is not Do you know what I mean? Like, if Imagine if in Instead of our organizing marches and sit ins and bus boycotts, he spent all of his time, he lived in the year 2024, he spent all his time replying to people on Instagram.

Nothing would have happened. So arguing is not, is not activism. The second thing is, is that I firmly believe that that there are topics, there are concepts, topics, however you want to phrase it, that are you, that uniquely weigh on your heart. Um, for some of us, it is international conflict. For some of us, it is natural disaster relief.

For some of us, it is getting microplastics out of the ocean. For some of us, it is educating six year olds. For, you know, for some of us, it is literally feeding the hungry at a homeless shelter. Whatever it is, there are topics that uniquely weigh on your heart. And I would argue that those topics uniquely weigh on your heart for a reason, right?

Like that is, that is tied to your purpose and your calling. Those topics are, um, nobody can do it all. And it, that's actually beneficial. One, any, any person who thinks they can do it all becomes a dictator. Okay. Right. Like if somebody thinks they can do it all, like run away from that person, that's a bad guy.

So nobody can do it all, but all of us can do something, right? Nobody is absolved of responsibility, but nobody has all the responsibility. So I think that we are better off. Caring deeply about the things that weigh on our heart and to do things other than argue with people online. Um, cause that's not activism.

Arguing online is not activism. Um, doing things where we are with the resources available to us. And the resources available to us will change throughout our lives. If you have a newborn baby, the resources available to you are literally physically, mentally, et cetera, are different than when you have a 12 year old.

Um, I have a very large platform. The resources available to me, I have a team of people that literally work for me, right? So the resources available to me. are different than the resources available to a first year teacher who is like, I don't even have, like, my school didn't even give me any glue. Right.

Okay. Um, the resources available to that person are different. And again, I'm not talking just about monetary resources. I'm talking about like your, your knowledge, your understanding, your capability, what, you know, your experiences, your life circumstances. If your husband is literally dying of cancer right now, Your resources are very diminished because you're focusing on that.

Um, and so your resources will change throughout your life. And that's also normal and good. and acceptable. That's also, like, we, we, we take on this burden of, if, if I'm not running at, you know, if I'm not sprinting until, into the casket at the end of my life, I've done it wrong, right? Like, if you don't, if you have not, uh, if you're not running full tilt towards a brick wall, then you're not doing it correctly.

That's what some people would have you believe. And I think that we, it's incumbent upon us to reject that idea. That's actually not productive for humans to exist that way. That's not how humans make good things happen. 

Andrea: Yeah, that actually is a perfect place for us to take a quick break because we're going to talk about some of the good things that Sharon has done with her platform when we come back from this quick break.

Welcome back to those who can't do. Um, so before the break, I tease that we were going to talk a little bit about some of the things that Sharon has done with her platform. Um, and it's Sharon says so on Instagram is the main one, right? And you have How many, how many followers do you have now? I know it's over a million.

Almost 1. 2 million. Yeah. Yeah. And the coolest thing to me, and there's so many times that like, I'll go over to the stories and, um, see that you've, uh, basically put it upon the Uh, Governords, which is the name for, for your followers to help in some, some corner of the world and in a way that is not commenting on a post, um, but instead is solving real world problems for people.

Um, can you talk a little bit about the hospital debt campaigns that you have, have done on your page? One 

Sharon: of the things that, one of the topics that is near, near to my heart, because again, we all have different. lived experiences. We all, we all care about different things, um, is related to medical debt. My husband, uh, four years ago had a kidney transplant and, uh, my mom actually donated one of her kidneys to a stranger.

So my husband could get a kidney from a stranger. And I'm very, very well aware how Medical issues impact all of us. It does. It's not a respecter of persons, right? Like you don't, it can happen to anybody. Anyone can have a baby in a NICU or have a car accident. Uh, and so many people have thought like, I thought I was set up with insurance or I'm 22 years old and haven't even started my first job yet.

I don't even have insurance. Um, and find themselves in a really horrific situation, uh, outside of their own control. And, uh, have left that situation saddled with enormous medical debt, um, through no fault of their own. And it's very uniquely American problem. This is not a problem in other places in the world.

Right. Um, and. There is an organization that I've partnered with called, they've called Undo Medical Debt. They used to be called RIP Medical Debt, but they recently, uh, changed their name to Undo, like U N D U E. And what they do is they buy debt on the debt market. And instead of, uh, acting like a bill collector who then sends you a letter, who's like, this is a attempt to collect a debt.

You know what I'm talking about? Where they're like, pay us 5 million. Um, instead of doing that, they. They forgive the debt. And so, because they are able to purchase debt at a discount, because this is how it works, um, they, every, every dollar that you donate is able to forgive on average a hundred dollars of medical debt.

So we, it's, it's crazy. We have now, uh, partnered with this organization on, uh, several different occasions and have forgiven as, as a, You know, community have forgiven over 300 million of medical debt in the United States, which is it's really cool. It really is. Uh, yeah. Incredible. 

Andrea: So I, I guess I, I never knew that there was such a thing as a debt market where entities can buy and sell.

And the idea is basically like this person owes me a thousand dollars and it's costing me money to keep chasing them down. So I'm going to sell it to somebody else for a hundred dollars. That's exactly right. And that's what happens 

Sharon: when your bill gets sent to collections. When people are like, we sent it to collections.

Uh, what they mean is they have sold it to a third party. And that third party then makes money by trying to get you to pay them instead of paying the hospital or paying your credit card company or whatever it is. So yes, that's how debt collectors work. They buy debt at a discount and then they try to recoup the full value from you.

So if you, if the hospital says, Um, you know, you owe a hundred thousand dollars for your hospital stay and they just, they decide that you're not going to be able to pay, um, or that your income is so low that they, you have no hope of ever paying this 3 million debt or, you know, whatever it is. Um, they will sell that at a significant discount to, uh, on the debt market.

Uh, and then bill collectors can come by and purchase it, but also, um, Organizations can come by and purchase it. And instead of trying to make money on it, they can just forgive it. 

Andrea: So if somebody wanted to contribute to that, is there a specific website they go to? Yeah, 

Sharon: they can go to undomedicaldebt. org.

And it's a very highly rated 501c3 organization. You can write it off on your taxes, uh, and they really just do incredible work. Very, 

Andrea: very cool. Um, so we actually have a mutual friend because you recently went to NATO. I did. You were invited along with a couple other folks and influencers and, and people like that and got to walk around NATO.

And Lauren Chela is a friend of mine who I know you got to spend some time with there. Yes, yes, yes. She's delightful. Yes, she is. Um, so what was it like? This is completely shifting subjects, um, but what was it like going to NATO after, you know, teaching about it and talking about these places and probably meeting.

I mean, you You met with Kamala Harris while you were there, right? And 

Sharon: I, I didn't, I got to interview Tony Blinken. I have interviewed Kamala Harris. I have interviewed her separately, but at this event, I sat down for an interview with Tony Blinken, who is the U. S. Secretary of State. And we talked a little bit about NATO and about, you know, uh, international conflict and, you know, things of that nature.

So, um, it's fascinating, right? It's fascinating to be in the room with 32 world leaders. That's like a really unique experience. I'm sorry, but it is. There were about 150 people in the room with this. They take what they call a family picture every time NATO has a conference. It's usually, the conference is usually not in the United States.

It's usually in Europe. because there's just way more NATO countries in Europe. Um, so it's only in the United States periodically. Um, so, you know, like last year it was in Lithuania. Guess what? The Lithuanian government does not know who I am and they are not inviting me. So, um, so it's a, it's a very, it's a kind of rare opportunity that it's in the United States.

So anyway, they take this family picture where they announce. Every world leader, that's a member of NATO, 30, there's 32 world leaders, and what is so interesting, I had no idea that they did this, of course I knew they took the picture, but having never been in the room, they play the most, I mean the best, they play music, like a soundtrack, while they're introducing people, and it literally sounds like that you are in the middle of the Princess Diaries, right?

Like, like it's a, it's Disney. If you said, if you said to the Disney composers, write a song for introducing world leaders, and then they were playing it in the background where it's like, you know, Sharon McMahon. Princess of Genovia. And there was like orchestral music playing in the background. So they play this music.

I took videos of it and I, you know, I posted this on internet and people were like, is that the real music? That's like, is that a joke? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes, it's beautiful music but it is not I did not know about the music situation. That was very interesting. Um, and then they literally go through Joe Biden is the host because he's the host country, you know, he's the president of the host country and then they also have the man who's the The President of NATO.

And they're standing on a stage and they go through one by one introducing, um, introducing the different, uh, world leaders and they come out and they shake the hands and they're like, so great to be here, you know, um, And then they take a picture, and then after they've introduced everybody, it's a little bit like Miss America, then everyone comes back out on stage, they stand in their place, and they smile and they take some pictures.

And it's very symbolic. Because they're demonstrating to the rest of the world that we're all here in agreement on the same things. We all agree to the same five important principles. And the rest of y'all better not try to mess with us. Right. Because here we all are. Right. You know what I mean? So anyway, uh, that was just a, a super interesting conversation.

a super, super interesting, uh, experience to, you know, attend the NATO conference and to get to see these people like up close and personal. 

Andrea: Yeah, and you recently were also embedded, right, for a little bit with the VP. Is that correct? I, I think I saw in your stories. 

Sharon: Yeah, I, I actually went to Uh, just this week, um, I went to, uh, I was able to score an interview with, um, the new vice presidential candidate, uh, Tim Walz.

And so I went to, uh, Eau Claire, Wisconsin, where this, uh, where he was flying into. We were going to have a little meeting, a little interview, and then I was going to go home. And he was going to do his rally, and then fly on to wherever the next location was. Well, I won't say it's a comedy of errors, because it ended up turning out really interesting.

But the bottom line is that weather on the East Coast delayed Their planes, uh, the VP, the actual VP, Harris, and the VP candidate, Walls, fly on separate planes. Uh, both their planes were delayed because of weather. So they were an hour and a half late, or thereabouts, arriving to the venue. Then they had all these other things that, of course, they had already set up to do.

We have to meet with the Girl Scouts, we have to do, meet with the City Council, we have to talk to the, such and such. The interview that we had scheduled kept getting like pushed back. Uh, we're like, we'll do it. Okay. We'll try to squeeze it in right before X. We'll try to do it here. So the only way that I was going to be able to talk to Tim Walls at all was to just roll with it and see what we could make happen.

Right. Well, what ended up being really interesting was, um, you know, the airport where they come in for a landing. is not the rally site. Sometimes it is. It was in Michigan, but at this particular location, it was not. The rally site was, you know, 10 minutes away or so. Um, so in order to go from the airport to the rally site, which again, I had not intended to do.

All of the roads were closed. Uh, and they were like, you will not get there if you try to drive. Get in the motorcade. So I'm like, get in the motorcade, get in the motorcade. And the motorcade is literally like 30 black suburbans. You know what I mean? Like you've seen these on TV where it's like, there's the flags and the lights and whatever, and they go 60 miles an hour.

So I rode in the motorcade. That was, I probably never ride in another motorcade. Didn't know that was going to happen. So it was just one of those things where like, uh, had no idea that 90, nothing went according to plan and yet all of it was interesting. 

Andrea: Yeah. No kidding. So you did end up actually getting to interview him though.

Sharon: Yeah. Well, I, we ended up having like three or four minutes to talk. And at this point the rally was now Two hours behind. Two hours late. We're backstage. You can hear in the little interview, which I posted on my Instagram, you can hear that it's like Florence and the Machine in the background. You know, like there's music.

They, the rally is literally waiting for me. to finish talking to Tim Walz, okay? Literally every people pleasing person's nightmare where you're like, don't, I'm not trying to hold everybody up. Like 12, 000 people are literally standing in the hot sun waiting for him to go on stage. That's not an exaggeration.

And, and it's me delaying everything. So I, I, we did talk very briefly. Hopefully another time we'll have more time for a sit down. Um, but nevertheless. It was, it was a very interesting day. I rode in the motor code or I rode in the motorcade. I got to see Air Force Two up close and personal. That Air Force Two is just a really cool plane.

It really is. Yeah. 

Andrea: That's awesome. That is so cool. So, you know, your, your platform and the work you've been doing has really opened up so many different avenues for you to meet so many different people. Has there been anybody that you have met that surprised you with maybe being like, Super courteous, super kind, super normal.

Because I think we all have these, these ideas of, you know, these people in power not being normal because they are in the public eye so much. Was there anyone who's, who you've met that you've been like, wow, that is unexpected? 

Sharon: Well, this is somebody that nobody will, uh, probably nobody will know who this is, but we did, I did, uh, get to meet with, uh, a defense minister, um, from, from Lithuania and when I was at NATO and she was.

She was incredible. I was like, this woman has got it going on. You know, like, first of all, you don't get to be like the defense minister of a European country as a woman unless you have it going on. So she was very interesting. But here's the thing that I keep coming back to is that, you know, we only see politicians on TV.

And we only see them in their speeches and interviews and, um, you know, we, we watch the clips online and we dissect everything they're, they say, and we're like, well, I don't like that, you know, like we, we have a million opinions about them. If you ever sit down to talk with a politician, uh, and you are able to get past the, past these, you know, build enough rapport with them that you can have some kind of back and forth, little bit of banter, um, You will be surprised at really, these are just, these are just people.

Yeah. These are just people who have made different life choices than you and have ended up in a position of power, uh, in the same way that if you were to sit down and talk to your city council member or your school superintendent or your school principal, these are just people. Human beings. Yeah. And the same is true of all of our elected leaders.

They're just human beings. Um, many of them have very like funny quirks about them. Um, you know, they're just like, it's just, it's just interesting. That's all it is. You know, um, it, I've had dinners with governors who are like, let's go to this pizza restaurant. And you know, my favorite pizza topping is X.

Didn't know that. Didn't see that in any of your campaign speeches. You know what I mean? 

Andrea: Yeah, 

Sharon: it is so funny. 

Andrea: I feel like we do, we kind of like make them kind of one dimensional ideas and then when you meet people like that in person you're like, oh, you also just, you know, have a favorite pizza topping and you know.

Like you like to drink 

Sharon: sparkling water with your pizza instead of still water. Interesting. Didn't know that, right? Yeah. They're just people. We need to stop putting elected officials up on some giant pedestal. They, they have important jobs. They should be held accountable to the voters for the important jobs that they're doing, but they are literally human beings just like you are.

And, um, they need to stop being deified or put on some giant untouchable pedestal. They're just humans. 

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so one of the things I do with my podcast is we get questions from listeners and then my guest and I try and, um, do our best to give some advice. And this one I think kind of goes with the, the thread of what we've discussed today.

Um, but this question came from California, uh, that, The teacher asked, how can a new teacher stay defiantly hopeful and keep teaching if they are asked to teach for preps, are given no content, have extra duties, and no collaboration? And it seems hopeless. Oh my goodness. I, 

Sharon: that is, that's, I can, I can feel how overwhelmed that person is.

I, I can feel it. I've taught in California and, um, California schools are, are, Wonderful. My grandfather was also a teacher in California. Um, but I also was very overloaded as a California teacher. I had 180 students. Um, I didn't have four preps, but I did have three. Uh, listen. My school in a very middle class neighborhood in the Bay Area of California, uh, had no hot water, nor did it have any textbooks, uh, because all of the textbooks had been destroyed during a water main break in the, uh, textbook storage room.

And textbooks are tremendously expensive. 

Andrea: Yeah. 

Sharon: People, people outside of education have no idea. Like, why would that cause, why would that book cost 300? Right? Like they are tremendously expensive. And if you have not budgeted to Replace all the textbooks in the school. All the school's textbooks. All.

Right? Astronomical. It's truly astronomical. Um, so it had no textbooks. We also had, um, a 15 a month per teacher copying budget. And there was a one person whose job it was to make copies. Uh, they had an actual employee who made copies for people and they kept track. of like, Sharon has this much. And I, this is not a joke.

If you went over the 15, it was taken out of your paycheck. It's not a joke. Um, so not, I'm very, very familiar with having no resources, right? Like no books, don't try to copy anything. Um, no hot water, no toilet paper in the bathrooms. Like children literally had to carry toilet paper in their backpacks. Oh my gosh.

So listen, all that to say, not to, it's not the suffering Olympics. I only bring it up because I have, I understand where you're coming from. I really do. Um, the first thing is you have to take care of yourself. If you do not take care of yourself, you will, you will burn out and you will quit. And then, then you're of no use to anyone.

Right. Yeah. Um, and I think teachers tend to be people pleasers. Uh, I think they, because it to to helping profession. They want to help people. Um, and it feels bad when they can't help people at the level they want to help them at. Right. That's like, I think a really natural way to feel. So one of the things that I would.

Focus on, um, is finding resources that, uh, require less preparation on your end, whether that is, um, you have to spend a little bit of your own money, which should not have to happen. I totally agree with that. Um, to buy some, uh, like pre made curriculum where it's like, it's, this is, I have all the worksheets already made.

Um, here are the standards that you're going to be meeting in this unit. Uh, everything is ready to go. And that means going on Teachers Pay Teachers and like, Spending some money to buy a little bit of things. Again, I don't think you should have to do that. But I also don't think you should have a nervous breakdown.

And leave the classroom. So, um, it's a little bit like if you have an illness in your family. Yes, get takeout. Okay? Make macaroni and cheese. Do what you have to do to survive. So, do what you have to do to survive. Lower your standards when it comes to, I will personally make every handout. I will personally type and copy everything.

No, you don't have to do that. Right. You, what you have to do is show up and keep the kids safe and, uh, that, that's your top priority. 

Andrea: I, I completely agree. I think also prioritizing like what you were saying is that the, the most important thing that those kids are going to remember is your relationship with them far and beyond any other learning that's going to happen in the classroom.

Um, and thankfully that is something that as long as like. Sharon said, you're taking care of yourself, then you can build those relationships with those students, um, and then the rest of, and that makes the classroom management easier, it makes everything just go so much smoother, um, and other than Teachers Pay Teachers, also there is AI stuff available now that is incredible, um, EduAid, is one website that is really amazing, has so many resources for curriculum planning and lesson planning and magicschool.

1. So those two, I would say go visit those. Actually, my, my husband's cousin just panic called me because he's teaching for the first time ever and he's never taught before and he's going to be teaching 10th grade algebra, I think, or 10th grade geometry, and he's never taught before. And, um, That, I've had fever dreams like that, where I wake up and someone's expecting me to teach math because I was an English teacher, so I'm like, um, let me show you these websites and best of luck to you because, you know, at least if you're teaching younger grades, there may be less likely to read that you don't know what you're talking about in 10th grade.

He's gonna, he's gonna go through it this year. So any, any resources that you can, you can access, um, all the better. Uh, the other thing that I want to do before we, uh, wrap up today is I always ask the My followers, what their students are doing on Fridays to find out kind of what bizarre things they're doing.

And this is the first time I've had an answer for it for the school year because school just started back up. Um, somebody submitted this morning that in the middle of homeroom this morning, a kid opened their backpack and found a banana in it from last year. And requested to squeeze it out into the class trash can, which is so gross.

But I am so curious, Sharon, because I, I 100 percent was that kid that, like, at the beginning of the next school year, I would find the lunch from, like, the week before. We got out. Were you that student or were you like the type A student that like that couldn't have happened because everything was immediately cleaned?

Like what kind of a student were you? 

Sharon: No, I definitely, my mom would never have let me, uh, my mom was a clean person, so she would not have allowed me to do that. But I have a child who's like that, uh, who would be like, I found my, I found my banana and then we smooshed it up and it was like so slimy and disgusting.

It was amazing. Like one of my children would do that. So no, I was not the like super, super clean and organized child. No. Uh, you know, my mom imposed some semblance of order on, on my life, but I would not have of my own volition be like, I tidied my papers. No, my desk was always a mess in elementary school.

The teachers were always like, no wonder you can't find anything. Your desk is atrocious. You know, I would just like crumple papers to make more space in there. You know what I mean? Like this is when people actually had desks that back, back in the 1800s when we had desks that stored things, you know, like most people don't have desks that store things anymore.

But, um, yeah. When I was in elementary school, my desk was not cute. Oh yeah. I, I remember 

Andrea: several times there would be like an apple, a half eaten apple, like shoved in the back. Like there's papers. We had layers. It was like layers of, you know, there was the, the rotten fruit and then some papers and staples and all of that.

So, um, before I let you go today, can you please share where people can find you, uh, anything about your new book, which I pre ordered immediately, by the way, um, that you have coming out soon in your book tour and all of that. Thank you. 

Sharon: Listen, the, um, thank you for asking. Um, you can find me on Instagram at Sharon Says So.

Um, I have a book coming out on September 24th that is called The Small and the Mighty, 12 Unsung Americans Who Changed the Course of History, and The bunch of the people in this book are teachers. And, uh, this book in many ways is a, is a love song to teachers. And, you know, as a longtime teacher, of course, I, I am very well aware.

You don't need to tell me how much teachers matter. Um, but this book illustrates hopefully in ways that, um, The average person would, would maybe not even be able to grasp the magnitude of difference that a single teacher can make, not just in a student's life, which is important, one student's important, right, uh, not just in a class's life or a school's life, but literally on the course of history.

So, uh, I'm very excited for that to come out. I'm going on a big book tour, uh, during the end of September, uh, beginning or the entire month of October, talking about my book and meeting people, et cetera. Um, you can also get my daily newsletter, um, at thepreamble. com. Um, and. Just get a free, interesting newsletter in your inbox every day about important topics.

Um, and all of that is linked on my website, which is just my name, sharonmcmahon. com. 

Andrea: Well, thank you so much, Sharon. I appreciate you coming on and sharing all of your wisdom with us guys. Please check out her website and, um, all of the stuff on Instagram and go buy her book. Thank you. Thanks, Andrea.

Thanks. We'll be right back.

Welcome back to those who can't do. I hope you really enjoyed my conversation with Sharon today. I got to tell you guys, I have been following her so closely from the, you know, from late in the pandemic. I remember, I've I want to say it was in like fall of 2020. So when I first started following her, I think she was around half a million followers, something like that.

And the way that she uses her platform is just so powerful and inspirational to me because she takes the time to really dive in and provide nuance on topics that people are very polarized about. And that can be really, really powerful. Really challenging to do when you have a platform the size of platform that she has.

So I just, I admire her so much for that. I admire her for the way that she, you know, has worked on the medical debt. And that's only one of the things, by the way, if you look at her website, she goes into pointing out all of these other things, other resources that she's provided, um, through crowdsourcing from her followers.

I mean, it's, really inspirational. Um, and I just am so glad that she came on and shared her wisdom with us today. I hope you guys really liked it. Um, if you have thoughts about what we talked about today, or you have any suggestions for people who should come on, you can email me at andrea at human dash content.

com, or you can contact me on Instagram or Tik TOK at educator Andrea, or you can contact the human content podcast family at human content pods. And thank you so much for those of you who have left reviews, as always, they make my day, they make my week. Just like, oh, I'm gonna have to try and read this name.

Okay. Hay Rigney's? H E Y R I G N E Y S. I think it's Hay Rigney's. Um, on Apple said, So validating. I've just finished my third year teaching fifth grade and everything I hear on this podcast is a hilarious and be incredibly validating. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge, love, and especially humor so evident in each episode.

So thank you so much for that. That is so kind. I really appreciate it. Um, if you want to check out the full video episodes, they are up every single week on YouTube at Educator Andrea. Thank you so much for listening. I am your host, Andrea Forkham. A very special thank you to our guest co host today, Sharon McMahon.

Our executive producers are Andrea Forkham, Aron Korney, Robby, Robby, Robby Goldman. I'm keeping it. And Shahnti Brooke. Our editor is Andrew Sims. Our engineer is Jason Pertuzzo. Our music is by Omer Ben Zvi. Recording location is Indiana State Bi College of Education. Thank you To learn more about are those who can't do program disclaimer and ethics policy and submission verification and licensing terms.

You can go to podcaster andrea.com. Those who can't do as a human content production.

Thank you so much for watching. If you're like me and you're thinking, gosh, I really need more, those who can't do in my life, you can start your binging right now by clicking on that playlist button right over there. New episodes are out every Thursday, so please subscribe and join us each week on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.