Idiocracy in Education with Denver Riley

Theme: Welcome to Those Who Can't 

Andrea: Do. I'm your host, Andrea Forcum, and today we have the wonderful, beautiful, talented Denver Riley. Hi, Denver. 

Denver: Oh, hi, sister. That was the nicest you've ever been to me. I know. I'm just kidding. I am doing so well, and I have to ask you a question before we get started. Great. I'm ready.

You saw I came in a cropped puffer vest. Did you see that? I did not. Please put it back on. I just want to ask if you are offended that I'm wearing this because California cold is nothing near Midwest cold. So are you like you're a poser? Get that off. Or can you sympathize that California cold when you're a Californian is in fact pretty chilly?

Andrea: Yeah, I would. I'm okay with that. Also, if you were in fact in an actual cold place, a cropped sleeveless puffer vest would not, that would not do anything. So that would do nothing. Absolutely nothing. And I will say so far. This like this fall. It's actually not been that cold here. So today was a bit chilly.

It was like in the 40s this morning, but that's what it 

Denver: was here. Twins. 

Andrea: I twins. We are the same. Basically. Yeah, I know. I love I love the puffer jacket. I think it's okay. Great. I just had to check. Yeah, we are matching today and 

Denver: are all 

Andrea: black. I know. I just I felt it. Um, question. How? How was your teaching day today?

Denver: Um, so I woke up this morning, right? Let me paint a beautiful picture. Great. Let's 

Andrea: take it all the way back to when you woke up. When I was asking how your teaching day went, that's what I was hoping for. 

Denver: Yes. Well, ask and you shall receive. I wake up and I don't feel necessarily tired, but I also don't want to get out of bed.

That's always my struggle. I love my bed. I'm in love with my bed. And. Get up. I'm listening to my morning affirmations playlist. Go listen to that people every morning. Okay, wait, hold on. Wait, is Do you make your affirmations? No, I look it up on Spotify. Cool. And it's just like shuffle and it's like this British woman and she's like, I am financially stable.

I'm like, 

Andrea: I am. Does she not say that? She 

Denver: so does. Rob, insert clip here. Denver, but that could be just like a blatant lie. No, it's manifesting. It's affirmations. It's I Okay. 

Andrea: Stop. That's such like a fact based thing though. Like, I understand being like, I am beautiful. I am confident. Okay. That's in there.

That's in 

Denver: there. Or I think it's more so along the lines of like, financial opportunities are always seeking. Me. No, they're not. Shut your mouth. Okay. Sorry. I just, 

Andrea: here's my thing. I will allow you to continue in your story and your journey. I'm not even out of my apartment yet. I just, I want you to think, next time you listen to that, I want you to think of the worst person you know.

Okay, great. So I want you to think of the worst person you know. Okay. Got it. They also have access to the same playlist as you. 

Denver: Are they listening to it? Probably not. And that's why they're awful. They could be and they're like period affirmed 

Andrea: every day that like there is, they are like the, the Deest Dewdrop walking through life because some British woman told them they're financially literate before they put on their makeup.

Denver: Okay, well then think of the ugliest person, you know, they're probably also listening. Mm-hmm . And then nothing's happening 'cause they're ugly. Oh, I guess that just proved your point. That just proved your point. 

Andrea: Okay. That's so much worse. I was like, well, the ugly person at least would have confidence to go through their day and feeling beautiful.

Oh God. Like, you're like, but the 

Denver: uggos. But the uggos out there are staying ugly. Staying ugly. Okay. Anyways. Yeah. With your day. God. Okay. I try and feel better about myself. Yeah. And then I get to work and I sit down, I get to work maybe like 40 minutes before, like, just because I've been finding I'm more productive in the morning.

Like, I love this for me. And again, I'm not necessarily tired, but I do not want to teach something in my bones. It's just like, Teaching equals no thank you today. Yeah, so I decide to make matters worse. We're also reading night in my sophomore class, which it's a beautiful story, but to have to mentally prepare to read about genocide to a class, it's tough.

It's tough. And so I say no. In fact, today, because it's wellness Wednesday, we are going to be creating. Um, I know this is coming out not at the same time, but it is almost Thanksgiving break. We are creating hand turkeys. 

Andrea: Is that what's behind your head? Because I noticed that as soon as you came on, that's what I was looking at instead of your puffer jacket is the hand turkey.

Denver: Yeah, this is actually from a student. Um, From last year who voluntarily made that for me. Like we weren't even doing that. And she said, here you go. And I said, thanks. And we made a page. There's examples over there, but I don't feel like getting up. It's just a hand turkey color it. And then right. Miss B is grateful for.

And I'm like, we're taking it back to second grade. And let me tell you the joy. That was in the classroom. Aw. Was so amazing. They were like, do you like mine? I'm gonna give mine a bow. Mine looks like this. I'm so grateful for myself. Can I put that? Like, it warmed my heart and it made the day. Was there any teaching?

No. It was community 

Andrea: building. So on yours, did it say? It was community building. I am thankful for being financially literate. Is that what you're saying? No, it didn't. The financial opportunities are searching for me. 

Denver: They are though. Who says they're not? 

Andrea: People are just like showing up and being like, please.

Denver: Yeah, let me give you money, and if it hasn't happened yet, it's gonna happen. Great. 

Andrea: I love that for you and for the turkeys. Did you know that, and again, this is coming out, like, in January, so everyone is like, why are you talking? Happy New Year. But did you know that they probably didn't eat turkeys on Thanksgiving?

Denver: Yeah, I think we talked about that on our Thanksgiving episode, maybe? 

Andrea: Did we? I don't know that we did. We talked a lot about a lot of things, but I don't know. It's been a minute. So 

Denver: we all know that history and me do not go well together. So you could tell me literally anything and I'd be like, yes, you're right.

Great, great, 

Andrea: great, great. So you decided instead of doing the teaching, doing some community building. That's lovely. I love that. And it 

Denver: was, and I have no regrets. Great. And now, and now I'm tired, but now I have a burst of energy because I'm talking to you. So. 

Andrea: Yeah. Um, so when this comes out, it will be a January 9th question mark somewhere.

No, like mid to late January. Um, but, but, um, as we are, uh, Discussing today. We just, and again, this is a nonpartisan podcast, I will say. Um, but we just found out last night who the head of education is going to be. For the United States of America. Do you know who that is, Denver? Do you know? Of course. Oh my god.

The audible typing. Uh, Linda. Linda? Linda McMahon. Do you know who that is? Don't look at, don't look at her bio. She's 

Denver: a former wrestling executive. 

Andrea: Mm hmm. She's, she's, is it Ed McMahon, I believe? Your face right now is literally my face last night. It's not a joke. It's real life. The Wait. Excuse me, Vince McMahon, Judy, it's not just Judy, Judy.

So I immediately did a little a little Google just as you did because I was like, right, Vince McMahon. I have heard of I'm not. Are you a wrestling fan? Are you a wrestling girly? I 

Denver: know, but there's a really hot guy in the, um, Wrestle, wrestling world. Is that what it is? He's like that really hot Samoan guy and he has like a ponytail, right?

And he's like friends with the Uso brothers. Oh, I don't know names 

Andrea: of literally I truly do not know anything about like WWE. 

Denver: I know the Bella twins and I know Yeah, so like doesn't your dad watch 

Andrea: I feel 

Denver: like I 

Andrea: or no, 

Denver: I think he did maybe when I was younger that was like A thing, you know, it wasn't like Hulk Hogan involved in that.

Yes. Okay. Then that was like his guy. 

Andrea: That's my last. Yeah. That's my last cultural touch point probably is like those two. So it's been probably a decade and a half since I've been up to date on all of that. Um, yeah. So that's the head of education, um, for 

Denver: the United States. So, what does that mean? Yeah.

Yeah. 

Andrea: So I feel like I, I talked to a lot of my friends, um, on both sides of this, of this, you know, political world that we live in. And correct. What the fuck was the response from, from both, um, which feels like a bipartisan kind of response that eat, like what? What is happening? Um, so I, I looked and from what I gather, the reason she was chosen to lead in this particular way, it was because she has historically been in positions other than with the World Wrestling Federation 

Denver: executive.

Sure. 

Andrea: Mm hmm. Yep. Um, other than that, she also had been a part of like a, basically like advocacy group for parents making, like getting more control over their kid's education. Um, she also studied to be, I think like a French teacher, but then when she married Vince. She just got real hard into that wrestling world, right?

Like, he just dragged her in there. Um, and so she has never taught. She has no educational background that I could find. I, again, like, this was literally last night and that it was announced and now that is 

Denver: She, oh my gosh, I was still on Vince's thing and it said 6'2 so I got concerned there because that's, that's very tall, but that's the man.

I thought it was her. Um. We love a tall queen here. It's fine if she's 6'2 We do love a tall queen. Yeah. I, okay, so she knows nothing about being inside the classroom and she's advocating for more parental control over their, their children's education. 

Andrea: Right, right, right. And, um, so that's, that's happening in, in our fair nation.

Also, not within education space. Did you know that the head of, what is it? Health and Human Services is Dr. Oz. You're lying to me. I'm no, no, no, no. Hold on a second. I love so much that this is happening two months after some of these things. So people are like, yeah, how does she not know? But this happened like, like today and yesterday.

Yeah. 

Denver: So I was under the impression that Dr. Oz was equivalent to Dr. Phil, where they were like fake doctors. Actually, no, let's retract everything. I just said my dad, which by the way, my dad is a huge fan of. The podcasting world, and he wants to do a podcast of his own. He was talking about on the radio once upon a time that Dr.

Oz and another fellow had a, do you know where this is going? No. Okay. Well, it was a, it was a radio show where teens could call in and basically ask for like, I don't know if this is problematic. Advice? Advice, but like, sex advice. Oh. So like, Dr. Oz would be there to be like, the medical side, and then this comedian guy would be there to offer like, comedic relief.

Okay. And it sounds very interesting and kind of problematic, but he said it was really like, good for these teens who just like, didn't know. They don't know anything. They're very ignorant. So I have no idea how I started talking about that. Oh, Dr. Oz. Um, but before knowing that I. Bring it back. I, again, was under the impression Dr.

Oz and Dr. Phil were under the same umbrella of, like, fake doctors. 

Andrea: Dr. Oz, I believe, is an actual medical doctor, but he is very much into making money. And so he has endorsed a lot of things. I think that's the biggest thing is he's endorsed a lot of things that people have said are like pseudoscience and all of that.

So I think that's the main criticism. It just is like a wild, wild assortment of humans to put together on. Like the halls of our beautiful nation, but 

Denver: it just kind of feels like we are playing a game of Clue, you know what I mean? And like, Dr. Muster, whatever the characters names are. I've never played Clue.

Okay. You know what I'm saying? It just feels very board game esque that I'm like, What are the rules again? And I 

Andrea: don't want to listen. Shouldn't maybe somebody have actually had experience in education before being a Right! 

Denver: That's that. 

Andrea: You would think. You would think. Yeah. No, it's been really interesting because it does in fact, um, feel like he, like, Trump is just screwing with us.

And like, he's going to actually get into the presidency and be like, just kidding guys. But I don't know that that's the case. Like, I like, I'm joking, 

Denver: but like, 

Andrea: right. But I like, yeah, maybe not. Um, but it does in fact, remind me of a movie that is probably one of my all time favorite movies, which you have never seen, which shocks me because you are.

A film girly. Yeah. I am. But this definitely predated you. So Idiocracy, which I've talked about on the podcast before, um, in its relation to Crocs, but there is a scene in this movie that we are going to watch together and I just want, I want your reaction. My reaction? Yeah. How old is this movie? Late nineties.

It's got so many people in it that you would. Idiocracy. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's 2006. So it's not late nineties at all. But that was only seven years off. And if for you and for the other people who maybe who have not seen idiocracy, the whole premise is like the smart guy is like actually like average to low intelligence by like our standards, but gets frozen.

And then there's like hundreds of years. That go by and all of the dumb people reproduced at a faster rate than the smart people, the dumb people end up outnumbering all of the smart people because they just reproduce so quickly. Um, and so then it ends up like, like that. There's a lot of tidbits in that one, but it just like, I mean, the, 

Denver: the white house had a empty.

A plastic pool in the front is, I think, what I saw. 

Andrea: Yeah, it had an above ground pool. The classy way of describing it is an above ground pool. Very popular in the Midwest, I will tell you. 

Denver: Disrespectful, and I said a plastic pool. 

Andrea: Honestly, yeah. What are you doing? Sorry. Yeah, no, the above ground pool is, like, very much a vibe out here.

And you can actually somewhat make it look good because you can, like, build up, like, a deck around that. 

Denver: I've seen that. That's pretty fancy. I could get down with an above ground hot tub. Yeah, 

Andrea: yeah, that would be fine. But maybe not on the front lawn of our Capitol building. The White House. No, the White House.

Right. Yeah. 

Denver: Um, yeah, I, uh, that's hilarious. And I want to go watch that. I want to go watch that 

Andrea: immediately. And you did not see some of, like, the biggest actors that are in that movie. It's, it is insane to me that it was Like less than 20 years ago that that came out because it was so ridiculous that some of those people would be like in the cabinet, but right, 

Denver: kind of like the can't be slapstick humor ask, I recognize, um, the guy that, you know, the smartest guy he is in.

So many films. Yeah, 

Andrea: I can't remember. And Legally 

Denver: Blonde. Me either. He dated Drew Barrymore. 

Andrea: That's all I 

Denver: know about him. Oh, really? Yeah. Luke Wilson. He's a 

Andrea: Wilson. Luke Wilson. Luke Wilson, yeah. Good, you both got that. Well, I did not get it. It's just because Rob typed it into my document. Oh, I was, 

Denver: okay, right.

And Rainn Wilson. He's the other, this is his brother. 

Andrea: Rainn Wilson is his brother? 

Denver: No. God, what's his name? 

Andrea: Owen Wilson. And Owen Wilson. Again, because Rob told me, not because I actually remember anything. I can't remember anything ever in life. I'm the smartest man alive, I guess. Right. Exactly. Um, okay. So moving on from that, we don't have to, to dwell too heavily on that.

Cause I'm sure people are very heavily dwelling in, in that reality. Um, correct. Correct. Um, correct. So this week I'm wrapping up my semester right now with all of my students. 

Denver: Yes. 

Andrea: And one of the things that we have to do, it is very interesting. Okay. So like as a high school teacher, I feel like one of our jobs and really K 12, one of your jobs is to be like, You can do, you are like the, um, the, what's, what did you, the affirmations that you get in the morning as a high school teacher, a K 12 teacher, that's what you do all day to these kids, right?

You're like, things are going to, you're going to do amazing things. You're going to be, you can, if you want to be a teacher, go to college and be a teacher. If you want, you can do this, you can do this, right? Okay. No, I'm a college professor. That's not my job anymore. I, okay, so, at, No, yes, you're right. At Indiana State, by the time they get to me, this is the first time they've had real classroom experience, right?

Like, because my students come in and I talk to them about curriculum, lesson planning, doing all of that kind of stuff, getting them ready to actually take over a classroom. Step into the classroom. Step in, do lesson plans. And then they have a massive. Report they have to give me after they've finished their student teaching that is required by the state.

Okay, so it's a lot. Um, And sometimes it is my job to look at a young adult and say Teaching is not choose a different career choose a different career. I It is horrible. I have never had to do that before and I I agonize about it because I always have always thought like, well, teaching is a hard career.

Not everyone can do it. But that whole, like, not everyone can do it thing. I never considered that I would have to be like, you should not. 

Denver: So, okay. This is a question of, you know, as I can't really wrap my head around having to do that. So I'm going to, is this something where you came to the conclusion? I have to do this for this person, or is that like a, do you think a universal professor?

In your position job of, okay, you also have to let your students know when it's, it's not going to happen. 

Andrea: Yeah. And I talked to, I talked to Steven about this a little bit because in STEM, they don't care about your feelings. They will literally be like, you're too dumb to become a doctor. Do something else.

Denver: Oh, right. Like I'm already crying. Yeah. I'm crying. Like, 

Andrea: in STEM, they don't care about your feelings, but as an educator, like, education major, like, we believe so much in our students, right? So it's so hard for me to be like, sweet angel, sweet baby child, do you think you maybe want to do anything else?

Anything else? And here's the thing, it's not just like a, it's not a vibes thing. It's not like I'm like, wow, like I just don't feel like you're vibing with teaching. It's like there's documented challenges that you are not overcoming, um, and I always leave it up to them because they can retake the class if they're, because if you are failing my class sometimes it's because you didn't do the paper, you didn't meet your deadlines and you just need to repeat.

It's not that you can't be a teacher, right? Um, it's not that you're bad at teaching. 

Denver: Do you have people failing your class? 

Andrea: Yeah. 100%. Do you think I'm a bad professor because people are failing my class? Are you judging me for it? No, I think, 

Denver: no, no, no, I'm judging your students. How are you, sorry, you're failing?

No, okay, let me, let me take it back. Failing is fine, okay? Is it? Like half my students are failing. Okay. No, it's not fine. But, I just was, uh, I, From my days in college yesterday, I made it a priority, like school is my job and especially with my career. I knew this is what I wanted to do, but I guess it goes back to your point of this is not for everybody, right?

Andrea: Sometimes it's a matter of like, okay, they because there's seven deadlines that they have over the course of their field experience. So they are doing other classes. Usually they've got to be in the classroom and they have to teach a unit while they're there. And then they also have to write this massive paper for me.

Right. So it's a lot of things to juggle. There is no doubt. Right. There are seven deadlines and then they come back and they give me the actual like assignment and some of them chose to turn in zero of those deadlines and then come in on the day and are really surprised when and like I gave feedback at every deadline like I told you guys I was keeping up with my grading I was giving specific feedback I was updating the rubric every week and the people who kept up with those deadlines Crushed it.

Like I had some people get like a hundred percent. They did so well because they fixed anything that was wrong. Right. Um, and then I had some that like every deadline they turned in was like, not it. And I was like, okay, like, here's what we got to do to change. And they like, it just, they couldn't get there.

And so then we had to have that conversation of like, there's other jobs. Maybe if we, 

Denver: you don't have to be here. Yeah. Did you know that? Yeah. And what is the response to those conversations that you have had to have? So I've only had to have, I'm fine. I got it. I'm good. Or no, they usually 

Andrea: know, like they usually are kind of aware.

And I've only had to have the conversation twice. And one time they were literally like, yeah, no, like I don't like kids. I was like, great, great, great, great. Well, 

Denver: it's not for you. 

Andrea: Yeah. I was like, subject matter is like a teeny tiny part of your job and most of it is kids. So you should do anything else.

Right, right. And then, you know, there's, there was another one where, like, there was a very sad look on the student's face, and I felt like I was literally kicking a puppy, but I would rather, because if I were to, like, pass them along, they go to the next class, and then they struggle, because the professor they have after me is harder than I am, and the assignment they have to do, they have to do that same project, but it's going to be longer and more in depth, and then if they pass that, they then have student teaching.

Yeah. And then they're going to be in a real classroom. So like, to me, I'm doing a favor to them because I'm saving them a year and a half more of agony, um, potentially a life and money, um, and potentially saving them from, you know, getting into a profession that they're not going to be happy with because they're not going to be thriving.

And yeah. And ultimately, like I will, I always tell her like, it's your choice. Like you tell me like what you want to do, I can tell you it's going to be a really big challenge. Like I'm willing to help you. I'm willing to do whatever you want. And if you want to keep going, like I'll, I'll be right there with you.

I'll support that. Yeah. Right. But yeah, so I 

Denver: killed some dreams this 

Andrea: week. 

Denver: You know what? I think I have so many thoughts. I think just thinking about what you said in the beginning of it is our job to kind of be that dream keeper for our students. If you will, but I think number one. The biggest difference is that it's their dream, right?

They're not already embedded in it, so they don't even know if they're actually going to like it yet, right? They could be so set on, no, I'm going to be a vet. Like this is what I want. And then realizing, Ooh, this is really challenging. And I, or it's just not for me, but when you're already in it of like, I'm here though.

Yeah. And that's what, as you know, I'm studying to be an actress. That's what we talk a lot about in. It's just, there's so many different categories. We talk a lot about that in my acting class of My acting coach, who is just so savage and unhinged, but having to have conversations like that as well of like, I know this is a passion of yours, but I don't know if the outcome is going to be what you're hoping.

You know what I mean? I'm just like, 

Andrea: yes, it's hard. 

Denver: Difficult 

Andrea: to tell that to somebody. And the reality is, right, is that there are less talented people. That are more successful because they did more work to get wherever it is you want to go 

Denver: thousand percent And so you're like you you might You might you might make it because if you really want it, I believe you'll find a way And you'll do but if it's not Every part of your soul and being that's why I really struggled in the beginning of my teaching just because As you know, I think you were here when I was having that like crisis of I don't know if I want to do this Forever and or right now, and that completely changed the way I taught, changed the relationships I had with my students, changed the way that I felt prepared for the day.

The mindset is everything. So you could get through your teaching student teaching experience, but once you're alone in the classroom and then it kicks in for someone who isn't all in, right. It could be really challenging. A hundred percent. 

Andrea: So Denver's gonna make sure she posts her Spotify playlist so you can be encouraged and financially literate every morning.

That British 

Denver: woman will bring you right up to date 

Andrea: and I love that for you. Um, okay. We are going to take a quick break and when we do, we are going to talk about college students that cannot read.

Welcome back to those who can't do and Denver. Yes. How many books when you were in high school did you have to read? Like assigned to read, like, not an excerpt, but like cover to cover. 

Denver: I want to say at least, like, total of my high school career, probably, I'm just going to guess, maybe like 12, between like 12.

And 

Andrea: 15. That's a lot. Were you in AP and honors classes? 

Denver: Yes. I was. That makes sense. I was in pre AP and then I was in AP classes. So. Okay. 

Andrea: Look at you. Okay. You're like really 

Denver: smart. 

Andrea: I'm like so intelligent. You guys don't even know. So I went to a very small private school. Um, just flip my hair. Is 

Denver: that a character, is that a character trait that you want to like brag a little bit about?

No. 

Andrea: Um, no, I don't want to brag about the fact it was a private school. I would brag about the fact that it was a very good education that I got. Like my parents sacrificed a lot so that my siblings and I could go there. Um, and it was, it was awesome. And they had tons of books that they made us read. And I do remember in high school, that English teacher I've talked about on here a million times.

Like she, I can't remember specifically what book it was, but I started to read way more after like her freshman English class. And I know for class, I probably had same as you like 12 to 15 books that I had to read. But then outside of that, I asked my mom to get me like classics. Like I got the Barnes and Noble used to have like these mini versions of these.

Goldleaf classics. I know 

Denver: exactly. They still have those. Do they, by the way? Yeah, they do. No, I know exactly. And they're beautiful to cover. And oh my gosh. No, I know. They still have them. 

Andrea: Yeah. And my mom bought me all of them. Um, love. There are some. Books in there that I don't think she did a little content check on.

Have you ever read Lady Chatterley's Lover? 

Denver: No, I haven't, but it sounds a little scandalous. It is 

Andrea: like the first spicy smut that kind of was popularized. Your mother didn't even know. She didn't. She bought me my very first smut book. Thanks mom. Um, it's 

Denver: really beautiful. 

Andrea: Yeah. She definitely did not know.

Um, but it was like, because it was like, literally she got me like, I think it was like between 30 and 40 books that came in like a big pack. 

Denver: Yeah. I know exactly what you're talking about. 

Andrea: It was incredible. And so I like voraciously read through all of those. And so that like, that's my reading. And of course we're both English teachers.

So like we. There's a passion for that anyways. There is. And now we're seeing that students are getting to college and have not ever actually read a book from cover to cover. You brought an article from the Atlantic, I think is what it is. That talks about how, and it's like, it says elite college students.

So we're talking like Columbia. High 

Denver: universities, correct. 

Andrea: Yeah. And these students, it's not that they are not intelligent. It's that they literally have never read a book cover to cover because it's easier to cheat, I think is a big part of it. What were some of the other reasons that they talked about?

100%. 

Denver: I think, well, we can thank, um, Abby, who I feel like people think is a fake person because she's not on the show, and I think she's a fake person sometimes. 

Andrea: She, guys, Abby was in our lunch group, and when I, when I went back last year for Disney. Oh, that's right. She was not there because she went back to spend time with her family.

We have a Marco Polo video group that she has been on one single time that she made a video until like last week where everyone was having their lunch and they all filmed her and asked questions that everyone was like, it was a 

Denver: round table for sure. And I just think We make fun of her that she's a pop star and she lives a secret life.

That's why she can never hang out with 

Andrea: us. Yeah. Um, but she did send this article for us, but she sent this 

Denver: article and I think what sparked our conversation actually was, um, We were on our way to the vitamin string quartet, which by the way, if you don't know who those people are, they do all the music for Bridger Tin.

Love it. Going on a tangent a little bit. They're amazing. It's okay. But we were talking about our students using AI and how frustrating Lauren has. Um, talk to us a little bit about how frustrating her classes specifically have been so dependent on ai. With writing their essays with doing quiz corrections or analysis or whatever it is, there's just no, I don't even know what the word is.

Andrea: Like, there's no, it's like desire. There's 

Denver: no hard work. There's no, like, I understand that this is work that I have to do. It's how can I get around doing this? Yeah. Including reading. 

Andrea: Yeah. And I, it's so difficult because I don't know. How we put like the genie back in the bottle with this, because I, I agreed, I remember when I was in high school, we had spark notes, right?

Like we had the literal blue book that explained and summarized for us. And I remember people would take that and cheat that way. People would get paid to do other people like cheating has always been a thing, but it's never been. Yeah, it's never been this easy. Like, never been this accessible and I'm seeing it on the college end.

I'm seeing, you know, I was talking about those giant writing projects and stuff and I see occasional AI with that one. It's really, really hard to successfully use AI because I'm literally asking them to take the lesson plan that they did and analyze it talking about specific students. So by the time you've typed all the things into AI to get that 

Denver: personalized, 

Andrea: yeah, which is one way that you can try and avoid.

AI, but it even, oh my gosh, that was the other thing. We just had this big meeting with my class and my colleagues class. And we told them we were going to be using AI checkers and they're like, okay, what kind of AI checkers? And we're like the best kind, you know? Um, and they're like, right. They're like, no, well, if you use Grammarly and you take the rephrasing suggestions, it will pop as AI generated.

Oh, right. 

Denver: Interesting. 

Andrea: And so I'm like, Okay. Great point. Because I, when I did my dissertation, I used AI to rephrase some stuff. And so I'm like, Oh my gosh, like, what if somebody is like, Oh, she, because I didn't use AI, but like, what if somebody was like, Oh, look, like this is phrased AI generated. Yeah. And I was like, okay, well, if you guys are going to use Grammarly, Grammarly will have a little feed, like a little like printout thing with feedback.

I was like, save that and submit it. If you're concerned about. It's a really 

Denver: good accountability tactic. I feel like that's the best that you could do for something like that. 

Andrea: And I feel like that's kind of what we have to do now is we have to kind of start having itty bitty little deadlines to check in.

So we're seeing like a process, but the thing is, is like, as long as we have computers in the classroom, this is going to be a battle. Like it just is. 

Denver: I think we've talked about this before as well of me bringing up that we try and head to paper and pencil a little bit more. But how that might be really specific just for where we are and maybe like our team because just it's everywhere.

And in the article, um, It mentioned a student stating that they weren't even required, they've never been required to read a book cover to cover, which also, I don't know if that is because we had to, is that an AP honors specific thing? I don't know. I think, I don't know. I feel like there's so many factors into it, but if it's spreading this Wild.

Yeah. Where do we stop? Well, and I think 

Andrea: part of it, for sure, has to be the fact that we, there's been a big push to get rid of homework, um, and we've done it, right? We have, in fact, read whole books to our classes in class. It takes time. Still doing it. Still doing it. Like, it takes time. Um, it's really challenging.

Even when you do, you'll have a few kids that are literally plugging the headphones in so they don't hear you reading to them. Um. Zoning out. Zoning out and they are getting the information, but they are not physically reading the book in those circumstances. A lot of, a lot of times they're not looking even at the page, right?

No. Correct. And so, like, we've, we've tried to find a way to kind of accommodate for our students because we know we want everything to be fair and equitable so that kids who have a lot going on at home can still get a good education. But now we're like, okay, but that means that we can't do as much, like we got to limit what we're doing.

We can't be assigning homework. We got to get everything done in class, ideally on paper, because if we give them a computer, they're going to cheat. And all of these little things that we're trying to do to make sure that they are learning when they just simply don't want to try often. It's. It's the trying 

Denver: aspect of, I mean, I just had a conversation with this about this with a student of the reason your grade is what it is, is not because you're not capable, right?

Mm-hmm . It goes back to the hyping them up of you can do this, you have what it takes. You haven't tried, right? I have nothing in the grade book. So you're sitting at the lowest grade you can get. Not because you're not intelligent enough or because whatever you think about yourself, you are not trying and I cannot help you.

It goes back to also the, I love my students and I want everyone to succeed, but I can only want it as much as they want it. And so when you are. It's not even a care to do yourself the favor of just try because you never, hey, try would be cool. What if you actually like did really well? Yeah, that would be crazy.

Imagine you can't imagine. I can't. My hands are tied at some point. I'm not going to push you to 

Andrea: Right. Do something you just really don't want to try and do. So here's one thing that I've been thinking about because I've got all of my different college students that I'm working with. I've got grad students.

So these, my grad students are working full time in classrooms right now on an emergency license and are also trying to get the teaching prep from me in a night class, right? So they've got all of that going on. So they're. They, I think they've got the hardest, right? Like if you are teaching for the first time, you don't have any prep and you're in grad school, like that is a ton to deal with.

And then I've got my undergrads who are doing multiple classes. They all have different living situations. Some come from like nothing and are first generation college students and are working in classes and all of that. Um, but what I'm seeing with a lot of, a lot of these students and I saw it when I was still teaching high school is that there is A very quick, I'm trying to figure out the best way of saying this.

It seems to me that something being hard is a valid enough reason for them to not have to try. And the way that they tend to get out of it is they say, I need a mental health day. And I am a, I am a big supporter of mental health. I'm a big supporter of taking care of things, right? Like, because it is important that we take care of our brains and being chronically stressed is not good.

Of course. But like, it's like no one ever told them to suck it up. And I, I'm sorry, but sometimes. Canceled. I, I know. I know. No, I've thousand percent thought that already. I'm going to get canceled as well. 

Denver: Because. Because. Suck it up. And you know, something that my dad, and I say this to every student when I'm having these types of conversations of you're not trying, don't you want to be proud of yourself?

You know, trying to get through, right? My dad always and forever told me high school and college is proof. Even if you don't know what you want to do with your life, he, I'm very fortunate that my parents were like, you know what? We'll figure it out. He still says, I don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

Like, that's just my, those are my parents in a nutshell. Always has said high school and college is just proof that you know how to start something and finish it and deal with all the BS in between. That is the hard work. Yeah. And you know what? Let's bring that clip back up of Kim Kardashian saying, nobody wants to work these days.

Andrea: And like, I know I, I have thousand, like, there's so many caveats to this. Right. And if we just clip that part where I said, suck it up, The internet will destroy me, but the reality, let's get 

Denver: ready for that. Let 

Andrea: get ready. Brace yourself. But the reality is, is any teacher who is working with kids knows there are kids that do have really valid reasons to be falling to pieces.

And you know what they're doing? They're putting in work. 

Denver: I was literally just going to say that 

Andrea: the kids that we, and again, we don't know everything going on, but it drives me up a wall when people will sit there and say the whole do that whole thing where they're like, Oh, you know what? I'm just like, I'm really overwhelmed.

I've got like, you know, I just need a mental health day. And I'm like, I, I 

Denver: get it. I get it. I get it. And you're right. Those kids that are, I mean, the worst of the worst of the worst situations, heartbreaking, like almost in tears. I'm speaking specifically to high school students, almost in tears trying to just tell you.

And I always say, don't tell me anything specific if you don't want me to know. I'm not asking to pry into your life, but it's just the fact of. You know, some students are very vulnerable and open and share what has been going on, but it's always without fail followed up with, but I really want to get my grade up and I don't know what that means and I don't know what that looks like, but I want, can you help me?

Andrea: And I, I think that's, I think that's the biggest thing is like, we are always willing to go the extra mile when a kid says, can you help me? I don't, I don't care. Like. What it is up until that point, a kid says, Can you help me? Yes. Yes. Let's do this. Let's figure it out. Let's get you where you need to be.

Like, I'm right there with you. And I think that for both of us, I want to clarify as well. Like, we're talking secondary in college, like, because that's where our experience is. Elementary kids. I have never worked firsthand with and when they're going through hard things at home, I, I, I don't have the experience to know what even that looks like in the classroom.

I'm sure apathy is part of it, all of that. Um, but just speaking from our experiences with working with second, you know, high schoolers and all of that. And the crazy thing is, is I'm, I'm seeing the behavior with the college students and they are seeing it with the middle schoolers they just worked with.

Yeah. And I'm like, Oh no, I'm like, what are you guys, like, what do you think we should do about the fact that, you know, there isn't the resiliency 

Denver: a hundred percent 

Andrea: and like they, they even can identify it. They're like, yeah, it's a problem, but they don't know what to do to, to fix that. And I, I would love to be like, well, let's just do this, but I don't know what the, the answer is.

Denver: Well, I'm also very curious if this is just what. My observations have been, I just had a conversation with a student today of You know, pull up your grade in this class so we can look at it together. I happened to look at this student's rest of their grades and they were not, they were basically all Fs.

And I said, I understand that this can feel very overwhelming because looking at it all at once, you feel like I don't even know where to start. And he was like, Yeah, like that landed. So, but I'm curious if there's an element of self confidence or lack thereof of just, well, I, I'm stupid anyways, I'm not going to be able to do it.

So I'm not even going to try. I really would like to think that's a big part of it. 

Andrea: Yeah. Because 

Denver: I've even said to students like, this is really good. This work is really good. Really? Yeah. I'm surprised. And even that. Completely. It's so cliche of just those words can turn it around, but I can only do that so much.

Well, and I think that, 

Andrea: you know, I think that they, they hear that and they're like, okay, great. But I also think we do need to probably have those conversations that like, accountability is not cruelty. Telling you, I expect things of you is not bullying. Like we, like there are things you need to do and you need to get it done.

Like. I, and I don't know. I do wonder if this is like a COVID holdover where we were like, let's give everybody grace. Let's just love them to pieces and we'll just pass them from class to class because it's been tough and now we're like, Uh oh. I understand. Yeah. Like, now we've done a thing. 

Denver: What is that movie with Michelle Pfeiffer and she is the teacher?

Andrea: Dangerous criminal, is it Dangerous Minds, I think? Is I don't know. It gets, I've never seen it. Me either. is a movie. I've heard it gets a lot of hate for being like a white savior type one. So I don't know if you're going to try and draw a favorable. 

Denver: No, there's just a line that I saw. Maybe not. There's a clip that she says.

No one's a victim in my classroom because I hold you all at a level that you can do. I'm paraphrasing, right? You can do great things. So I try and instill that of like, I'm never going to ignore the fact that you have your own life outside of the classroom. And I am not going to pretend like I know what it's like to walk in your shoes.

However, what I do know is when you're my student, I'm I have high expectations for you, and you will achieve them. Right. You just will. And I think that it's the tone of, you just will. And you're gonna have fun doing it. Yeah. Got it? It's gonna be 

Andrea: great. Brace yourself for all 

Denver: of I said about the hand turkeys today.

I said, you're gonna do this, and you're gonna like it. And they 

Andrea: did. 

Denver: They did. 

Andrea: Yeah, probably because you manifested this morning and you got your your heart and soul so ready for it. 

Denver: And you know what? Being financially stable. I'm talking about rich and all the factors of life. 

Andrea: Okay. So finances are like emotional finances.

It's those kind of financial. Okay. It kind of feels like 

Denver: stand by what I said. I refuse. You just refuse. 

Andrea: You just refuse to not listen. I can't wait for tomorrow morning when you're listening to it and you just hear me in the back of your head. I'm just feeling like, all right, this is 

Denver: stupid. 

Andrea: I did that to one of my friends.

There's this, there's this song, um, uh, that one of the churches I went to used to sing and it got a lot of hate because there's a. A line in it. I can't remember what the song is called, but there's a line in it that this is a worship song, right? Like so you should be like like singing to God in this moment, correct?

And it's when heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss Is a line for I am not lying to you. Um, 

Denver: icky 

Andrea: It is, um, a David Crowder song, and the song is called, uh, How He Loves. And it's, the, the song is a good rhythm. Most of it is fine. And they actually went in and changed it. 

Denver: Who's they? The writers? The man?

The writer. 

Andrea: The writer. Literally. Okay. And like that, David Crowder is like a very, very, I think, I think. I'm saying David Crowder, but I actually don't know if he's the original writer of it. 

Denver: Just your version. That's who you know it as. That's, 

Andrea: that's who I know it from. Um, and they, like it went out, all of these different churches were singing it.

And then everyone was like, when heaven meets earth, like a sloppy kiss. And everyone's like, oh, I 

Denver: don't like that. I don't really like that at all. Yeah. 

Andrea: It just immediately gave simile wrong, wrong one. And so then they changed it to unforeseen kiss, which also feels that now it feels like assault. 

Denver: It feels like.

Not something you should be saying in the 21st century. 

Andrea: Yeah. So I was telling one of my friends this because I was like, that's, those lyrics are crazy. Like I am not singing that. That's insane behavior. And she said, ever since I said that every single time they, and they sing it like every Sunday at her church.

And she's like, 

Denver: she's like, Andrea is. She's like trying to have like 

Andrea: a spiritual experience in a moment and interrupted by me being like, that's the most disgusting simile of all time. 

Denver: If someone was going to do it, it had to be you. It probably did. 

Andrea: Yeah. I mean, honestly, you're welcome. 

Denver: And thank you for now.

You know what, though? I love it. I love the, I do. I love it because it makes me feel even more delusionally at peace with myself. 

Andrea: Gross. 

Denver: Take that, take that sloppy wet 

Andrea: kiss for you, babe. No, it's unforeseen now. Everybody, it's fine now. We changed it. 

Denver: Oh, sorry. Unforeseen. Even worse. I want the sloppy kiss back, I think, because that insinuates that I wanted it.

Andrea: Probably. Um, okay, question. Answer. Do you have anything insane that your students have done this week that you want to share or like in the past couple weeks? 

Denver: Uh, I was walking past a kid. And, um, said hi to Melissa. Hey, Mr. Maya, I have pink eye. Bye. That was the full interaction. That was great. Yeah. Oh, so that was scary and spooky and I didn't really like that.

Um, I had this one student today who just couldn't stop like break dancing every time he like got up to go do something. Oh, was he good? Um, he was doing it. Okay, great. Uh, and I loved the passion and I was like, what if we did that? As passionately with our work, right? Like what if we would happen if you did that 

Andrea: broke dance our way over to educate ourselves, 

Denver: right?

Um, and then I had another student. Um, I do have some stacking up because you know, it's thanksgiving. Everyone's kind of getting a little crazy and a little too comfy. Yeah, my students are one specifically In my, one of my classes likes to harp on the fact that she believes that I am a Disney adult and she actually wrote me, which I'm not, I'm not, how many Disney years do you own one?

Actually, I've had the same pair of ears since I was a child that you've kept. Yeah. Okay. But I bought a new pair. Okay. And I had a pass. But Disney adult to me means like my shoes and socks and sweater and eyeliner is Disney. That's like insane. Eyeliner? How could you have eyeliner? 

Andrea: Okay. 

Denver: I don't know. It like sings when you put it on or something.

I don't know. 

Andrea: There is like a term when you like go dressed up as well, like dress up like the color scheme of a character. No, it's not cosplay because you can't go dressed up as a princess. It's called, um, there's like a special name for it. Wait, 

Denver: that's so interesting. 

Andrea: Yeah, it's what, like, if you wanted to dress up like sleep, like Aurora, you would wear like a pink dress, um, like Disney loping or something.

Let me see. 

Denver: LARPing. You know what that is? 

Andrea: I do, actually. It's really interesting. And why don't you, uh, tell me about that while I'm looking this up? 

Denver: So let, I have an interesting relationship with LARPing because. When I went to college at the University of Hawaii, and I would walk from my freshman dorm to campus.

At the crack of dawn, this LARPing group would be in front of this beautiful sculpture on campus that was like so symbolic of the Hawaiian people and all of that. And they were LARPing. The disrespect. The disrespect. Put your sword away. You're not a knight. Put your sword away. You don't speak this makeup, made up language.

I don't know. I have, I have strong feelings about LARPing, but because maybe I'm jealous and I wanna do it. 

Andrea: You wanna play pretend, um, it's called Disney bounding, by the way. Oh, that's okay. Disney bounding. And if you, I feel like if you are a Disney bounder, then you are a Disney adult. 

Denver: Well, 'cause you're like, then.

But I looked really cute the last time I do it? 

Andrea: You didn't do it. Well, 

Denver: not on purpose. I wore like a black long sleeve like this and like a cute little red skirt and black and white polka dot ears. Everyone was like, I didn't intentionally be like, I'm Minnie Mouse, but I just, it looked like, shut your pie hole.

Pretty sure that that is in fact 

Andrea: Disney bounding. 

Denver: So this student, I, I, I don't know how we came up on this topic, but she, I told her I was getting a pedicure that day and she goes, Oh, is it going to be a Disney design? And I said, no, and she walked past me and our little crew and she said, are you talking about Disney?

I said, what? I hate her. Honestly, my face. No, I love it. She's the only one that we can like roast each other with. I really, she dressed up as Steve Harvey for Halloween. If that gives you any idea, I love her amazing person. She is now. She's hilarious. 

Andrea: I love that. She's spending her time trolling you.

That's nice. No, 

Denver: she is doing her job. 

Andrea: I know. It's sad that I can't be there to do it in person. So it's good that someone else is picking it up. I should send her the Spotify list that you listen to so that she can whisper those into your ear every morning. 

Denver: You know what? You should. Because then I'll give a double dose of it.

And I appreciate it. You're just making my life a lot better. 

Andrea: I legitimately didn't know that, like, that was a real thing that people did because I've seen it in movies and stuff like where it's like books on tape. Um, but they're like inspirational. 

Denver: It's just, it's morning affirmations, self acceptance, affirmation, self esteem, positive growth, mindset, self care.

It's just something that gets me my eyes open and feel like Today is, this is so dark and morbid, today is worth getting up for. Wow. Because I'm just so tired. I 

Andrea: am glad that you have that playlist. You're not, why would it, no, I will be cancelled for making fun of you for it. Because everyone is going to gather and be like, don't you talk about her affirmations.

Don't cancel her, you guys, 

Denver: because I love the haterade. Because Andrea is also my biggest supporter. So it's like, it doesn't. I really am. There's nothing that you can, can't put me down. That's not a song. I just made it up. But I've 

Andrea: already said like six things today. That's going to get me canceled. I even like talked a little bit about politics.

So between that and then teasing you about your affirmations and religion, anything else in there? Yeah. Do you maybe want to talk about abortion or just kidding? Let's move on. Let's wrap it up. I actually know. Let's, um, move on and wrap, wrap this thing up. Um, what? Oh, what? Denver. Okay. Denver. The, the Patreon we need to talk about again because by the time this comes out, our bonus episodes will probably be coming out very quickly around this time for our patrons.

Denver: I am so excited. This is seriously. I'm just so proud of it. 

Andrea: I am too. And I cannot wait for the opportunity to just like hang out because there's gonna be a live the last Thursday every month. It's going to be what the way we have it set up is 8 p. m. Eastern time and then 5 p. m. Pacific time. So figure it out, guys.

Figure out what what your time is. Come 

Denver: hang out with us. Just came. 

Andrea: I was saying we should call it like book talk happy hour or something. Well, because we love it. Our book club is called Those Who Can Read and if we just have like those who can read happy hour where we just talk about the book, which the first one is Geneva Rose's book, which you guys obviously heard her interview, which amazing thing was so good.

I'm so excited and it's 5 a month and uh, you get two extra episodes. You get to hang out with us. And here are stories and all of that good stuff. So I am. Reactions to the books. I just 

Denver: love a good book club and I feel like a lot of people search for that. So this is something that you could do on the go.

Why would you not want to? I've been said to my students, you guys, people have book clubs for fun. 

Andrea: Thinking about us. You're getting this for free. Right. Exactly. You're getting this for free. Yeah. Not ours though. Our Patreon's $5 a month. But like if you were in her class, , 

Denver: right? If you were under the age of 18 and you were in my class, but for you guys it is $5 a month.

Andrea: So sorry, but also you get a lot. Please join us Lot and our teacher besties are all going to join. So at the live, you guys are probably gonna also get to hang out with them, which yeah, is a gift, honestly, which 

Denver: all of us together too. You've never witnessed anything more fun in your entire life. It's amazing.

So for $5 you get to hang out with all of us. I mean, that's. It's amazing. 

Andrea: I love it. I cannot wait. I cannot wait. Um, okay. So where do people find you? What are your socials? All that good stuff. 

Denver: People can find me at keeping up with Miss b. I am keeping you updated, so you better come keep up with me. 

Andrea: That's right.

Was good. Instagram and and TikTok. 

Denver: That 

Andrea: was good. Look at you, Instagram and TikTok. Thanks. Sounded like an influencer. Proud of you. I am affirmation. I am. Love it. All right. On that note, we won't be right back. Bye.

Welcome back to those who can't do. I had so much fun chit chatting with my bestie Denver. She cracks me up. Um, we chit chatted a little bit afterwards and we are Literally, like we've been brainstorming all of these cool things to do with the Patreon and I just, I cannot wait for you guys to see it, it's gonna be super fun.

If you have thoughts about what we talked about today, unless you're triggered, because then it's gonna hurt my feelings if you get sad or angry with me, um, I'm sorry if I made you sad today. Uh, but I also don't think I regret anything I said. So, um, but if you have suggestions on who you would like to have come on today, there are a lot of ways to contact us, Andrea at human content.

com. Or you can contact me on Instagram or TikTok at educator Andrea, or you can contact the whole human content podcast family at human content pods. So if you're angry about something that we said today, you can contact them for sure. And thank you so much to those of you who. Have gone in and given beautiful, wonderful, poetic reviews for the podcast.

It makes all the difference in the world. I don't have any new ones to share with you, but if you would like a shout out on the podcast, please go onto your favorite listening app and type in a happy little review for me and I will read it here and give you a shout out. So thank you guys. And if you want to see the full video episodes, they're up every week on YouTube at Educator Andrea, which means you would have gotten to see that fun clip from Idiocracy, not just heard it.

I don't know what it was like just experiencing the audio because that is a wild, wild movie. Thank you so much for listening. I'm your host, Andrea Forkham. A very special thank you to our guest co host today, Denver Riley. Our executive producers are Andrea Forkham, Aaron Corny, Rob Goldman, and Shaunti Brooke.

Our editor is Andrew Sims. Our engineer is Jason Portizzo. Our music is by Omer Benzby. Our recording location is the Indiana State Bi College of Education. To learn more about our Those Who Can't Do's program.

Thank you so much for watching. If you're like me and you're thinking, gosh, I really need more of those who can't do in my life. You can start your binging right now by clicking on that playlist button right over there. New episodes are out every Thursday, so please subscribe and join us each week on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.