Edutainment Done Right with Jerry Kolber

Andrea: Welcome to those who can't do. I'm your host, Andrea Forcum. And today I have with me Jerry Kolber, who is the creator of a hit education show. Well, actually several hit education shows like Brain Games on NatGeo, Brain Child on Netflix, and the podcast, Who Smarted? Jerry, welcome. 

Jerry: Thank you, Andrea. It's great to be here.

Love your show. 

Andrea: I, thank you. I'm so excited to have you. My, I was telling my husband about this this morning and I was like, yeah, he's done like all sorts of shows, like brain games. And he's like, I love that show. So my husband is a very big fan of all that. I mean, you have worked with so many people, like you, you work with Pharrell Williams on, on some shows and, um, the Mythbusters guy.

Um, and like, Yeah, like so incredible. And my, my brother is an aerospace engineer. And so he, I have vivid memories of my brother literally just sitting there, like watching Mythbusters on a loop, like any educate, edutainment as, as it were, has been, um, like a big part of my, my home. Um, so how did you get into that originally?

Jerry: So I, so I was a pretty bad student. In high school, to be honest, like science and math were not a strong suit for me, but I was always interested in it outside of school. Like I was always at like the museum of science. I was always reading about the, how the universe was formed, all this stuff, but it was like on my own terms.

And it didn't occur to me until probably about 10 years into my career making, cause I made reality television for a long time. And at some point I was like, Oh, you know, the reason I wasn't good at. Learning in school is like, I have a different learning style. And I never, I never really understood what that meant.

Like, it's not something that's like, was certainly not in the ether when I was going through, through school. But my learning style is very like, hands on, very like, I want to, I want to like, see it. I don't want to, I don't learn abstractly. And so, When the opportunity came up when National Geographic was looking for someone to help run their New York office, gosh, maybe 15 or 16 years ago, I was like, well, first of all, there's no way I'm going to get hired for that job because I've like been making reality shows.

So I'm like, they're probably not going to think much of me. And I was like, but on the other hand, if I did, I could bring a really interesting perspective to that of like, how do you take all of the fun of the like reality TV experience and apply that to learning about things like Brain science and engineering and aerospace.

And I had this sort of idea. And, um, through, I mean, oh my God, like, like, I think I did like 10 interviews to get the job. It's like, it was, it was, they're very, I mean, as you can imagine, Nat Geo is very particular about who it hires. I was actually, and I was pretty transparent. I'm like, I don't even know why you guys are talking to me.

Andrea: You're like, like unselling yourself at all the interviews. You're like, why am I actually here right now? 

Jerry: Yeah. And they're like, no, but we want someone with your pop culture background. I was like, okay. And then it turned out they did. And I had, I had such a great time working there and the people there were really incredible.

And one of the projects that was bubbling around at the time was, um, at the time it was called like the great brain test and it was like a three episode special. And it was a pretty, to be honest, like the format when they gave it to me was. It was pretty, pretty stodgy, like pretty old school. Like, like, like, it was kind of like filming people doing things like brain tests.

And it'd be like, can you figure out the, you know, puzzle? And there was, I was like, there's something to this. And they were like, can you figure out how to, um, to make this really special and different? And, uh, there was a guy named Bill Margle there who, who worked together with me on figuring out like how to, how to create the show.

And, um, that's what. Became brain games. And once we had the rough idea of like, can you play game, make, make it so that people can literally just play the games with the show without needing an iPad or an iPhone or anything like that. But like, instead of watching other people do it, can you just make it so that they do it in their living room?

And that's what became brain games. And it was like a wild journey of like research and innovation to figure out how to make. Like a, what's normally a passive experience of watching television into something active. 

Andrea: So 

Jerry: that's how it got started. It was like me, like bad, bad science student got a weird opportunity.

Make a fun show for Nat Geo. So, um, yeah, yeah. 

Andrea: And really what you did is a lot of what teachers are always trying to do is take something that could potentially be dry and potentially was taught to them in like a very dry way and be like, no, we're going to make it like interactive and fun. Right. Right.

Jerry: Yeah. No, I know you talk about that a lot on your show. And I mean, my mom was a teacher, she, and she was a counselor. And so I grew up around that, that idea. And my, The classes that were most engaging for me in, in school were the ones where, you know, instead of teaching us like English literature, I had a teacher who brought in Apocalypse Now and was like, we're going to watch this movie and then we're going to read Hearts of Darkness.

And I was like, okay, this is pretty cool. And now, but like, if they were just like, read Hearts of Darkness, I'd be like, uh, 

Andrea: you 

Jerry: know, I mean, I will, but like, but it became fun because you're like, oh, this was, you know, Inspiration for that movie. So yeah, I, I'm 100 percent on the like, make it fun, make it fun train.

Andrea: That's awesome. So what kind of lessons did you learn making, because I feel like reality TV in general, when people talk about reality TV, there's kind of like a, like a judginess about it. Um, even though, well, even though we love it, right? Like, I, I love me some reality TV. Like I'm, I'm not. I'm not one of those people that like, if it's reality, I'm automatically gonna be watching it.

But like, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, like a lot of people are right now. Big fan of that one. Like, there's a bunch of ones that I really enjoy. Um, so what are the lessons that you took from your time doing that into Nat Geo that made it so successful? 

Jerry: Yeah, so I, I started my life in television as a production accountant.

Um, I just had this weird Series of events that led me through theater into working in for Dick Wolf on the show called New York Undercover back in the day and that kind of led led me into Working on, then I worked on Sex and the City, the original season of that as a, as the production accountant. So I got to see how many, you know, how much, how much all those clothes were, which is really kind of wild.

I bet. Like got to be friends with Pat Field. That was fun. You know, it's like, okay, Pat, I'm going to, I love your clothes, but I really need you to understand how to fill out a petty cash form. Right. Like, like we all have our strengths, I think she said, like, right. Okay. Um, and then that led me to become the producer on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, the very the original version of it.

And that is where I had this crash crash course in like storytelling where there isn't a story. Right. And so with Queer Eye, I'd be like, okay, we've got this guy, he's got an event coming up and he, you know, has all these issues, but we would then have to work with the, with the segment producers to figure out how to turn that into a story.

Right. Because otherwise it's just like schlubby guy gets new haircut. Like that's not really a story. Right. And so that, that was my first taste of like unscripted. Or reality as we call it. Um, and then the next show after that where I did like the first 60 episodes of that show. And then I got thrown into this show called Gastineau girls, which was this like precursor early, it was like Kardashians before Kardashians.

And it was this woman, Lisa Gastineau and her daughter, Brittany Gastineau. Um, and the job was to create a 10 episode series about these two like socialites. You know, mom and daughter socialites living on the upper, upper East side. And they're like, they're great people, but we got there and we're like, they don't really do much.

Like there wasn't a lot of story. Lisa's like, well, we go, we get our hair done and then we shop and we do this. I'm like, okay, so we got to come up with stories. And so what I learned from that experience was like, really like looking at taking, looking, working with real people and figuring out how to create.

Like real stories. I mean, I hope I'm not like revealing anything you don't know about reality television. It's not real. It's not real. I mean, and at one point I was like, okay, they're like, what is this? What are we doing? I'm like, you've been hired. To play characters based on yourselves, like that's the best way I can put it, like that's what we're doing.

Um, and what's funny is Brittany, the daughter on the show was, and actually I think she's still tight with, but she was like best friends with Kim Kardashian. Um, and we were in Aspen filming and Kim was around and she was like, what is this? This is interesting. Like, I think this is, and I'm like, huh, were we the, were we the spark?

Probably. Yeah. Where's your cut? Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm happy for the, like, I don't need a cut, but I was like, I was like, like a couple of years later, her show came out and I was like, huh, I wonder if that was like, you know, she was like in Aspen, like, this is interesting. I think I might want this. So, yeah. So I, whether, whether you think it's a good thing or bad thing, I'm going to take some tiny amount of credit for the, like, you know, reality TV thing.

And, you know, it's funny, even, um, Even like, uh, um, Real Housewives and all that stuff that kind of grew out of Queer Eye, um, was interesting because Bravo really figured out how to do like Top Chef is really Ted's segment, you know, from Queer Eye and Project One Ray is really Carson's segment from Queer Eye blown out, you know, and so it's, um, it's been interesting seeing that genre evolve.

I'm also a fan of a lot of the shows, like, Like, my husband and I love some Desperate Housewives, not to, sorry, why am I saying Desperate Housewives? Real Housewives. We also love Desperate Housewives. 

Andrea: Right. 

Jerry: Um, but, um, yeah, so that's how, so that's what I learned from that, was really just how to, how to create story where there isn't necessarily real story, but how to make it feel real and authentic and, and connect with the audience.

Andrea: That is so fascinating too because I could see it almost being easier for people who are a part of reality tv to deal with some of the pushback that shows up if they themselves feel like they are playing a character on their reality show then the judgment about their choices is about that character and it's less about you know them personally and their terrible life choices.

Jerry: I would love to tell you that that's true. Is it 

Andrea: not? 

Jerry: It's not. Oh no! It's a great theory. I love that. It doesn't work. Like, it's because they, they don't, they don't, I mean, they're not really playing a character. It is themselves. And so, you know, in that case, like there'd be some pushback on Lisa. And I told her, I was like, don't, don't.

Don't read the forums. Don't read the comments. Don't do it. It's a dark forest. Don't do it. And if you know and she did and it was really hurtful, you know, people would say really mean things and you know, Yeah, so unnecessarily mean it's like why why are you so invested in these people on TV that you have to say mean things about them online, but Right.

Andrea: Right. So it 

Jerry: is. So it goes. 

Andrea: Do you follow your own advice with that? When you put out a show, do you go and read the forums about your shows that you're helping I read all of 

Jerry: it. I read all of it. Aren't I the worst? No, I love it. Do you? I love it. Yeah. Well, we actually, we have a show called Slaycation that I host with, um, my business partner and his wife.

It's like a true crime comedy show where we, we were very compassionate about the crimes, but it's all crimes that happened while on vacation, all vacation based murders. But we take like, sort of like a friends talking about it approach. So it can be kind of funny. And, um, The show is like, people love it for the most part, like it just gets nothing but great reviews, but then once in a while we get like a really negative review, and I read those on the air.

Oh no. I read them, I'm like, I think they're so, I, I'm, maybe I'm just like battle scarred at this point, but I don't, I, you know, I love the good reviews, I love the bad reviews, but I think they're, I think they're pretty funny. 

Andrea: I love that. I, so I, you know, sometimes have Denver on and one of my latest reviews, literally, it was a five star review, but it said on it, like, um, why are you bringing back Denver so much?

Did you run out of guests? And so last time I recorded with Denver, I made her read that review. I was like, go Denver. Why are you here? Right. She's like, oh, get some new guests. Exactly. It's like, come on people. Or maybe 

Jerry: I really like Denver. Like, what's the big deal? Maybe she's fun to hang out with. Yeah.

It's just freaking great. Yeah. 

Andrea: That's so funny. So you took all of that knowledge of like story building into education and you said, what was the show you said that it kind of started things off at Nat Geo? 

Jerry: That was Brain Games. 

Andrea: Okay. 

Jerry: Yeah. Yeah. 

Andrea: And was that a limited release or is that still ongoing? 

Jerry: So Brain Games was initially three one hour specials.

Uh, and those did so well that we then came back and did, um, seven seasons of it as like a half hour, um, show. So it's done. I mean, they, they may revive it at some point, but, uh, we finished making that five or six years ago. Um, there's like 60 episodes of it that live on. I think Disney Plus, so. 

Andrea: That's awesome.

Yeah. That's so cool. So are those episodes things that potentially teachers could plug into their classrooms? 

Yeah. 

And, uh, and kind of like be like, okay, so if, so I, I have not actually caught that one yet. I should have asked my husband for more details about it cause he was really excited. Um, so it, is it like all, uh, like literally like, what's going on?

Brain teasers type stuff? 

Jerry: So it's everything from, there's some brain teasers, but we use a lot of, um, we have the magicians in the show every episode. And we use magic and illusion to help you understand how your brain doesn't work the way you think it does. Um, so we, we do that. We, we do a lot of science demos where we'll actually have a scientist come in and take like what could be like a boring lab experiment they've done, but we recreate it in a fun way for television.

So, um, Everything from like interactive demos to quizzes to experiments. It's kind of runs the gamut. 

Andrea: Nice. 

Jerry: Animated stuff. I mean, we did, so that, that show was really intended for adults, but kids loved it. Um, and kids loved it so much that we then went and we made a show that's probably even better for like younger classrooms called Brainchild.

Um, and that's one that we did with Pharrell Williams for, for Netflix. And that was a 12 episode limited series where each episode is a different topic that's interesting to kids like motivation, the earth, uh, you know, all that kind of like, all the, like, like emotional and science topics that kids could, could, could relate to.

Use some insight on 

Andrea: that's awesome. So when you go about producing something like that, do you, are you like, you, do you find like, is, is, did someone like submit that as an idea or is that something that you were like, I want to do this, call Pharrell up and be like, Hey, my guy, can you come over here? We're going to teach some kids stuff.

Like, how does that work? 

Jerry: Um, those are both really, that's a fun, like, like, like I just call Pharrell and tell him to come over. Yeah, isn't that how it works? I just assume that's how everybody's 

Andrea: all, everyone's on speed dial. 

Jerry: Um, so that one was interesting. So Pharrell, uh, Pharrell happened to be represented by the same agency as us at the time, Willie Morris Endeavor.

And our agent there, um, A guy named Jad who has been our agent forever. Um, he also was representing Pharrell and Pharrell had a kid, his kid was probably, um, his son was like seven or eight at the time. And he was super, Pharrell's always been interested in education. He's always had educational foundations.

His mom was a teacher and he'd mentioned to our agent, like, Hey, I'd love to do something, you know, with my platform right now with, with kids because, um, The happy song had just come out. So it was like a moment where he was just like very recognizable to, to like eight to 10 year olds. And he was like, let's seize this moment and do something.

And Jad was like, you need to meet. My clients, Jerry and Adam, who made Brain Games, because they're pitching the show Brainchild right now, and maybe that's the perfect thing to work together on. So we met Pharrell and his creative partner Mimi Valdez, this fabulous woman who works with him and helps all of his TV projects and everything.

And, uh, it was like, Like instant, like, like mind love, like we were all like so aligned with what we wanted to do, uh, that by the end of our first meeting, we're like, okay, let's do this and that's how it happened. And then we just ended up spending the next like four or five years working together. We did that, we ended up doing doc, we did a documentary with Pharrell a couple of years ago, um, about his music festival.

So, you know, it all kind of grew out of that initial meeting. Um, But it was just, you know, the way it kind of works is you, sometimes just the stars align and someone's like wanting to do some kind of project that's similar to what you're thinking of. And, you know, you joined forces and it's amazing. 

Andrea: I love that.

And you said that, um, one of your parents, was it your mom or your dad who was an educator? 

Jerry: My mom was a, was a teacher. Yeah. 

Andrea: And how has that kind of informed how you approach these, these things? 

Jerry: So education was just always a huge priority in my home. So it's just always. It's just always been in my life, like, like learning to read at a young age, um, really paying attention to learning how things work.

Um, yeah, my mom, I mean, my dad was a, was an accountant, but he was also interested in, you know, making sure we were educated. But my ma, I think my mom really, just because she was a teacher, just, you know, Really was always bringing that like the ideas of education into into our home. So 

Andrea: I love that. 

Jerry: Yeah, it's very influential.

Andrea: That's really cool. So as teachers are like getting ready, like I I'm trying to think of one of the things that I really hated. Teaching. Cause I mean, the, the thing is with being an English teacher is I can't say there's not an existing story because I teach stories for the most part. Um, but sometimes the story, like I have a deep, deep hate of Anna Karenina, for example.

I think like, it is so 

Jerry: funny. Just a deep hate. That's not where I thought the next words were going to be in that sentence. That's hilarious. 

Andrea: I, there's like one section of the book where it's just like descriptions of like a hunting dog running through the snow, and I find it deeply, deeply boring. So for, for stuff like that, how can I, if I, like, let's say I'm going about teaching something that I find deeply boring, like anacranina, what are some of the steps you think I could take or other teachers could take when we're approaching a topic that we honestly find pretty dry, but it's in the curriculum, we got to teach it?

Mm hmm. 

Jerry: Honesty? Maybe? That's a tough one. Maybe you're just honest. You're like, look, I'm, this is in the curriculum. Maybe you make a game of it and you're like, there's a part of this that I hate, and you guys know me pretty well because I've been teaching you for a few months. Um, and I want to see if you guys can figure out which part of this I really don't like.

Andrea: I love that actually, because then it's like a personal person study too. 

Jerry: Yeah. It's like, huh, can we figure out what, what, what our teacher doesn't like? Or you make a game of like, um, You know, or like they get to that part and you have like a writing assignment where you have them rewrite that section, but they can only use 100 words instead of 5, 000, you know, or something.

I don't know, like maybe make a game of it that way. 

Andrea: Yeah. I like I have not 

Jerry: read, I have not read Anachron in a minute, and I don't remember that, but like, yeah. I don't, I don't remember loving reading it. Actually, I'll say that. 

Andrea: I feel like part of it for me was like the plot itself. Like I, I don't enjoy the plot of it.

It made me angry. But then also it took such a long, like it's Russian literature. So it just takes so long to get there that it was. A real struggle when I, when I had to go through it. 

Jerry: What, what grade is, is reading that? 

Andrea: Usually it would be like AP lit. So we're talking like 12th grade. These are already seniors who don't care.

And then you're going to tell them like, let's read some, some Russian literature. It's a, it's a hard sell. It's a very, very hard sell. And that's like, I taught for the most part, I taught 11th grade. And so I would have to teach Scarlet Letter, which, Was difficult in the writing style, but the story is, is fascinating.

And there's so many different things I would get really excited about. So I felt like I could, I could sell that a little bit more because I do feel like it, it's almost like doing a pitch when you're starting a new unit with your students where you have to, like you said, like, I remember. When I taught, um, Scarlet Letter and there was another one I taught that I don't enjoy reading the book, but I like teaching it.

And so I would be very honest. I'd be like, I don't love this book, but here's why it's important that we read it. They'd be like, wait, what? Like, you're an English teacher. You're supposed to literally love everything. Just go 

Jerry: home and read like, you know, Dostoevsky every night. Exactly. A 

Andrea: thousand percent think that's what English teachers do on, on their time.

Often it is. Absolutely not. It's so funny. 

Jerry: Do you think it's a good or bad thing that, like, the literature classics that are taught are kind of always the same? Like they haven't, like, they haven't really been updated since I was in school, like, a few decades ago, and it's like, there must be some new classics, like, right?

Like, it feels, it feels like a very set in stone curriculum. 

Andrea: Well, and it's so interesting because with that, there are things that come about in The books then get pushed out of the curriculum because we're like, that's a really mature, like, that they can't be, you can't be talking about sex in a book for kids.

And I'm like, have you met Shakespeare ever? Like, it's 80%. And then we're, you know, getting rid of John Green's book. Um, I think it was turtles all the way down in Indiana that they were trying to say, like, couldn't be part of the curriculum. And I think that there, there is real value to having some core texts that we can all use as, like, a cultural Touch point where we're like, you know, we, we all know this reference because we've all been familiar enough with Romeo and Juliet that we're like, Oh, yes, I know what we're saying when someone said like, you know, makes it makes a joke or an illusion.

So I do think that there's some value to having some of those. Um, The best way I've seen it done is where people pair a piece of classic literature that's part of the curriculum that says like, hey, you have to read a Shakespeare play, freshman English, and they would take that, and then you would also read something else that you felt could, like The Fault in Our Stars, so you'd read Romeo and Juliet, but you'd also read John Green's The Fault in Our Stars, so You're pairing it with something that feels more relevant to them that like touches on things that matter to them.

Um, and is a lot easier to get through. Um, because I, I do think that there's, there's value in that because I know there are some that are like, we need to get rid of like anything that's wasn't like written within the past 50 years. And I'm like, but like, I think there's value, especially within, um, like trying to bring voices from diverse backgrounds and figuring out all of the different stories.

Like I want to read, like, yeah. The, the stories of the Native Americans that were, you know, in pre America, and I want to also read like the different perspectives from that time, because that's incredibly valuable. Um, so that's a very long answer to your question. Like, I think, I think there is value to it, but I think that we could also do better.

Jerry: I love what you're saying, though, about pairing a classic With a contemporary book that is similar or even maybe based on that, I mean, I think you can even do that with movies, right? Like Romeo and Juliet, there was like the, um, there's been so many versions of that, that, that movie versions of that, that sometimes aren't even clear, but yeah, I, I, I agree.

I think, um, there's a lot of books being removed from places that it's really unfortunate because it's like. If you, like, it's also kind of hilarious that that's happening now. Like, those books were around when I was a kid and there was no, really, internet. Yeah. It's like, if you think that removing a book that has some sexual reference from an 8th or 9th or 10th grade classroom means that those kids aren't going to learn about that thing, In some other way, like, come on, like, 

Andrea: well, putting a phone in their hands and like, being like, there you go.

Go have fun. Like, yeah, 

Jerry: I think it's a missed opportunity to actually have, have those conversations in a room with an adult really. Um, and I understand there's certainly limits. Like there's some things that really should be reserved for parents to talk about, but there are, there are certainly some lanes that, that can be talked about in a classroom.

Um, yeah. But 

Andrea: yeah, you 

Jerry: know, yeah. 

Andrea: And I, you know, it's interesting because with, with like addressing some of the, the more difficult topics and stuff, I, one of the books that I taught and it was during the pandemic, we were teaching over zoom. So for the first time for some of these parents, they were hearing directly like what the teachers were saying in class and all of that.

Um, and I never had any issues with any parents. Like I, like by all means, like, please come and listen to what I'm talking about with your kids. Um, But one of the things that we were reading was Just Mercy, um, which is a phenomenal book and it has, um, we, we read the young adult version and for the people who haven't read that one, it's about the criminal justice system in the United States and deals with a lot of really tough topics.

Um, And at one, in one chapter, there is an allusion, um, to some abuse that one of the convicted people had gone through. And so I had a parent come to me and say like, Hey, I don't want my kid reading this book. And so I was like, And I know there's a lot of teachers that would be like, kind of want to push and be like, no, like this is the book we're reading.

But to me, like, I don't know that kid's history. I don't know what, what has gone on in that child's life. And I think it's kind of on the teachers that when there is something like that, where a parent says like, hey, I have a concern, can we get an alternate thing that we have options of being like, Sure.

These are like, these are the lesson objectives. Here's a book that could also do that. Here is, here you go, you know, and, and offer that option because I think that's, it's really important for, for parents and teachers to work together, um, to, to help kids get the education they need, um, in a way that's going to To not be super traumatic, because again, like, I don't know what that kid's been through.

I don't want them to have to face something traumatic in front of all of their peers in a classroom setting like that would be incredibly challenging. So yeah, I think that there's room to have, I think, um, a little bit more open dialogue about what we're teaching, how we're teaching it, than, than sometimes people want to have.

Jerry: Yeah, I think that's, that's a great way to think about it, honestly. I mean, we, when we were making Brain Games, we were, like, we were making a show for the adult viewership of Nat Geo, and within the first few weeks of the show airing, it was, it was rating incredibly well, but we also started getting feedback that the, um, average age of the viewer was, like, 30 years younger than the typical Dat Geo show, which is an insane difference, right?

Andrea: Yeah. And it 

Jerry: turned out that that difference wasn't because it was just a lot of 30 year olds. It was like a lot of kids were watching. Wow. And we were coming up, we were about to start making our Brain Games episode on, on sex in the brain. And my business partner, Adam's, uh, daughter came home from school.

She was like eight at the time. And she's like, daddy, daddy, um, all these kids in my class are watching your show. And Brain, you know, brain games and this and that. And Adam said, cool, cool, cool. And he comes in the next day and he says to me, he goes, Hey, you know, that episode we're about to make on sex in the brain?

He's like, yeah. He's like, it's now, it's now called attraction.

Andrea: That's such a good rea And I was like, 

Jerry: Oh my God. He's like, he's like, yeah. He's like, I can't. He's like, we can't make that episode because all these kids are watching. And it's like, but can we, but can we cover the same ground, right? Essentially what you're saying, like, what is the core concepts we're trying to teach?

Well, we could do that through talking about. Attraction, which is a much more PGG, you know, or even G rated topic with the way we handled it, um, rather than PG 13, you know, and it was just like, to me, that was such a great, he, he figured that out overnight and I was like, that's such a great way to, to keep the, Keep the content and keep the, keep the mission, but change the content.

Andrea: Yeah. 

Jerry: Um, and I think your approach in, in the classroom, like thinking of it, like with that nuance of like, what is this kid's experience? I hope that more teachers are thinking that way because it is, you're right. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's like reflexively, you just want to push back and say, you know, You know, how dare you tell us what we can teach and not teach, but you're 

Andrea: right.

Jerry: You don't, you don't know where it's coming from. So smart. And 

Andrea: I, I do love that, that shift of being like, uh oh, like, wait, okay, so I do have a question about that. What is the average age of a viewer for NetGeo then? 

Jerry: Uh, at the time it was, um, I think like 57, 58, something like that. 

Andrea: Okay. 

Jerry: So it was pretty high.

I think it's higher now. 

Andrea: Is it? 

Jerry: So yeah. People 

Andrea: not watching Nat Geo anymore. That's one of my favorites. 

Jerry: Well, let me ask you this, what do you love on Netgeo? 

Andrea: There was one I just finished watching because my son is in a very big animal phase right now. I'm terrible with the names of lyr like if you asked me my favorite song I couldn't name it and I probably wouldn't be able to sing it.

Jerry: Animal, animal. 

Andrea: Yeah, some, some, definitely some like deep dives on, on animal. on animals of various kinds. 

Jerry: Yeah, the challenge with Nat Geo, it's not just them, it's Discovery and, you know, A& E and all of those, like the younger audience is watching, um, is more on, like, Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, or YouTube, TikTok, if you're getting even younger.

Yeah. So there's this kind of fracturing, like, almost by age of, like, where people are consuming. Media. So, 

Andrea: yeah. And I do, I do think that the younger generation too is far more likely to just scroll on their phones than they are to stream anything on, on a show. Um, so yeah. Um, okay. That I think is a perfect place for us to take a quick break.

So we will be right back.

Welcome back to those who can't do. Um, so I do have to tell you since you've worked with Nat Geo about the time that I tried very hard to get a job with them because I had, I was at the, at that point I wasn't an English teacher yet. I just graduated with my bachelor's in English and I was working as a tech writer in like Northern Virginia ish area.

And I really wanted to be a travel journalist. That was like my goal. Just like, you know, when people think of Nat Geo, you think about like going to exotic places and like documenting life and giving a voice to the voiceless. And like, I was like, I'm going to do it, but I had no, no writing credits to my name whatsoever.

I had no platform. I had like, I literally had nothing. So. So what I ended up doing is I emailed, I think, like one of the just general email addresses I found online. Um, and I got like an auto response, but in the auto response, I could see how the email was formatted. It was like, I can't remember now, but it was like first initial dot last name at not Nat Geo and all of that.

So I went, I went online and found the name of like the. Head executive editor or whatever of Nat Geo and looked up his name and then I plugged in based on that formatting and just started sending emails. Like I was, I wasn't constant. I didn't get blocked. I never got a single response from him, but I was like, my tenacity, he's, I had it in my head.

I was like, he's going to get this email and be like, how did she find my email? What a tenacious young woman. Let's hire her immediately. That did that. That did not happen. She's got Moxie. Yeah, I literally was like, I have enough Moxie. They're going to want to hire me. And they're gonna be like, wow, she's going to change the world, guys.

No, they never responded. I never got a call back or, or anything. Um, but I did for, for a minute, I thought this is, this is it. But apparently like what I, I needed to do was go and work. Uh, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, and then I would have had an in. 

Jerry: Yeah, you need to be a queer eye for the straight guy, make some trashy reality TV, then make some classy reality TV.

Andrea: Right, exactly. And then tell them 

Jerry: that you don't think you should be working there like I did. 

Andrea: They like it when you play hard to get. 

Jerry: I guess. I mean, but honestly, it was the craziest interview, like you, I mean, it was like literally 10 interviews. Like, I had to go to DC like three times, I had to meet the New York staff three or four times, I had to sit down with like the head of production.

It was like. At some point I'm like, y'all better be hiring me because, like, this is becoming a job, just interviewing. Yeah. Yeah. 

Andrea: So how, how many people did they do that with? Like, how many people did you beat out? 

Jerry: Oh, that's a good question. I'm assuming thousands. No, I don't know. Well, I mean, 

Andrea: probably for the job overall thousands, but 

Jerry: Yeah, you know what, honestly, I think, I'll bet it wasn't a lot of people because it was one of those jobs that was like sort of high profile enough that they probably were just like asking for recommendations, like sort of like a, I mean, they must have posted the job now.

Now I want to know. I know. Yeah. Oh my God, I never thought about that. What if it was just, I'm wondering like how many people, if it was just 

Andrea: me, , like , I'm just wonder like there's so, there's like so many people that find 

like went like 10 days of this and then they were like, I'm so sorry. It turns out Jerry is is the one that's not you.

Jerry: No, no, no, no. I know that they didn't put that many people through that process because like one of the things they had me do was multiple times. actually meet with the staff of the New York office. Because the woman who was running it was, uh, this, this woman Kim Woodard, who's this like amazing producer, like, like the nicest, like, she just really super protective of her staff.

And so everyone was like, like loved her. Right. And she was like, she was just running this amazing, creative New York satellite office and she was going out on maternity leave. And so that's what they were hiring for was while she was out. And so it had to be someone that the staff would really Like, get along with, you know?

And so, like, I had to go and sit with the people who, like, basically the, ultimately the employees were, like, interviewing me, um, and I, you know, I know them all now and I know that they didn't bring a lot of people through for that part of it, so, um, yeah. It's, 

Andrea: you know, when they have interview processes that are that intense and they really, really get to know you, it's honestly so much scarier because then it's not your qualifications that they didn't want to hire if they don't hire you.

Like, it was you as a person. 

Jerry: A hundred percent. I said this. I said like four or five of these and I'm like, I'm like, man, if I don't get this, this is a very personal rejection. 

Andrea: Each time it just becomes more and more personal. 

Jerry: Like, it's like, huh, you know, the more we get to know you, the more we don't like you.

Andrea: Yeah, because the qualifications got you in the door and got you fired. Through those first like three interviews, but then they got, then it's, then it's you. And they're like, I just can't sit next to him for the next three to five years. I can't do it. So 

Jerry: it would have been such a personal rejection, 

Andrea: but instead you got that amazing job and got to make these incredible shows.

Theme: Yeah. 

Andrea: So one of the things I want to talk to you about, cause you said you, you struggled as a student and did you say you did struggle with math or no? 

Jerry: Oh, putting it mildly. 

Andrea: Okay. So you and I have that in common because math still makes me cry. Like to this day, I will sit down and I will panic. And one of my very good friends, she has a 12 year old who she's been temporarily homeschooling.

And it very likely is going to come to an end soon because her daughter is doing the same thing I did where. Any time she sits down with her to talk to her about math, she will shut down. She will say like, I can't do it. And my, I have such a vivid memory of sitting in math class and staring at the problem in front of me right after the teacher had finished talking about it.

And I remember thinking when she was talking about it and going through it, I understood. And then she's like, okay, guys, do the problem on your, on your paper. And I looked at the problem on my paper and And my mind went blank except for, like, this horrible little voice in my head that was going, like, you're an idiot.

You're so dumb. Like, you can't understand this. How do you not understand this? And I'd, like, look around. Everyone else was working. No one else seemed stressed. I would just start to cry. Like, that was, I would say, more days than not in my seventh grade math class. And unfortunately, the math teacher I had was, I would say, very old school.

And she Would get very frustrated if you didn't understand because she felt like it was because you weren't paying attention. 

Um, 

it couldn't possibly be anything else that maybe there was like learning challenges or anything like that. So I'd be like, can you, can you explain that again? She's like, I just went through that.

And I'm like, okay, we'll got it. So I am done then. Now I 

Jerry: understand. Now I understand because you told me I'm stupid. So thank you. Exactly. 

Andrea: So what was your experience like with, with math growing up? 

Jerry: So I, I always knew that I, Kind of, I was like kind of into math and like the idea of like math as it related to real world things.

But like math as a con, like an abstract concept in, in school was not my jam at all. And my, um, my mom being an educator was like very keen that I would like learn the most possible, right. And so I would test well on like math, whatever aptitude tests. But then, then we got to ninth grade and they were like, you have to go into pre algebra.

And I was like, I don't want to do that. Like, I know what algebra is and I don't, I don't want to do the algebra and so therefore I don't want to do the pre algebra. Right. I've seen what I needed to see. I've like, I've seen, yeah, I can see into the future and this is not a part of my life. 

Andrea: Right. 

Jerry: And they were like, well, you, this is what we want you to do.

I was like, this is, and I was like, this is a terrible, terrible idea. I was just telling all the adults in my life. Um, so pre algebra kind of got through it. Algebra really, really, really started to struggle. Got through it. But by the time I got into like 11th and 12th grade, it was like geometry and calculus stuff.

And I was like, I'm out. I'm out. I went. Instead of going to math class, I, at some point I was like, I'm just going to go have breakfast with my friends at another high school. 

Andrea: You went to a different high school. I went to a 

Jerry: different high school and started hanging out. Not a restaurant. No, I just like would go like hang out with my friends.

Like it was, it was bad. It was bad. Like it just, I just gave up. I actually had to, I actually had to repeat class to like graduate. I had to go to summer school to get out of it. And so my experience was like, I got forced into a track. That I knew going in, I couldn't do, um, and I think, uh, but now like I'm really good at like what I would call business math, like math that is applicable to my life in some way, I'm great at, like, like I've been a line producer and a production accountant, right?

So if any of my math teachers were like, wait, what? I'm like, yeah, because it's like related to a thing, like, it's like this math

And I think math anxiety in particular for young women and girls is even, is it's, it's certainly exists for guys, but for women, young women and girls are still not a lot of really great visible role models of, of women using math in a way that is like relatable to your daily life. Um, and I would say that that is the single, the single best way, like your friend with her daughter, if there were, and this.

This is a tall order and I realize like this is like a lot of thinking and bandwidth, but if there's a way to take whatever the math is that she's learning and like put a container on it or a skin on it that makes it relatable to her life, to her life as a child, um, so that she suddenly can like say, oh, we're not just talking abstractly about this and that, we're talking about, you know, uh, something that relates to her allowance or the number of hours she's allowed to use social media and like using that as the basis for the math Math education.

That is very effective, but it is like, it's a lot of work to figure out, you know, how to, how to kind of like reframe math in that way. Um, but that is the kind of work we, we try and do like a sort of like, you know, educator adjacent communicators. 

Andrea: Yeah. 

Jerry: That's a term I just figured out. No, that's a great, that's actually 

Andrea: a great description of what you do.

Like, that's exactly it. 

Jerry: But that's what we, what we try to do is we try to do that heavy lifting. Right. And so, um. I mean, that's where the show, Who's Smarted, the pod, the Who's Smarted podcast came from was during the pandemic, parents were every, every, you know, every parent was a homeschooler really. I mean, yes, you had school on the video, but like in the sense everyone became a homeschooler.

And so we created Who's Smarted, particularly for elementary school students. Kids to help them get excited about these topics that they were probably going to struggle with, and to make it a little easier so that when you got to the curriculum, they were like, interested and curious. So, you know, because we just realized like, that's a lot like people like, well, you know, how come your methods aren't being used in a classroom?

Like, because teachers can barely like, Do the checklist of like the curriculum, getting the kids settled in, grading papers, like all of the back office stuff, and then like, oh, they also have like these things called their own lives, like outside of the classroom. So no, teachers can't, cannot be expected to like come up with like unique learning methods for, you know, 30 kids in every classroom.

That's insane. 

Andrea: Yeah. Well, and I think like what you said about making it personal, that also is going to be very personalized to the kid. And so sometimes what I would be trying to find something that was going to really hit with some kids, I would completely miss the other group. So like when I was teaching poetry, I would try and find, you know, some songs and sometimes I'd be like, okay, let's do a Taylor Swift song and we're going to analyze the imagery and all of that.

And that worked with some, but then I have these other kids over there that are like, this is, Like, I hate Taylor Swift. Like, why are you making us listen to this? And so I feel like that's also a part of it where it's like trying to make it relevant is going to make it relevant for, for this little section.

And then you're going to miss like a lot of the, the other kids. And I, I, I think you're totally right with like the math piece too, because for me, like as an adult, like I, I run my, my social media business and I do all of that and I do my books for that. And I never, Feel the way that I did as a middle schooler when I'm doing that and granted, it's very basic addition, subtraction, percentages, stuff like that.

Same thing with grading. I never felt overwhelmed or stressed. Um, and I think it's because like you said, like it, it, it had meaning to it that it just didn't have in, in middle school. And right. That was one of the things my husband prepping for his PA program, he was learning such high level math and in such high level sciences and stuff like that, that he started to find out some of the why behind some of the math rules that we learn at lower levels.

where they just say, just trust me, that's the way it is. And that, I always remember being the part that I couldn't, I couldn't make it, I couldn't make, jump over that gap where they, I'm like, but why do we do that next? And they're like, well, just trust me, that's what you do next. And I'm like, but. I don't understand, like, it, it seems logical to you that we're doing it next, but I don't understand why that is a rule, um, and because it was such high level math, they would have to go so far beyond what I was capable of learning that, like, I couldn't memorize those, those rules and then would get very frustrated with myself, and, um, I think, like you said, like by making it like, okay, well, you know, if you're going to be doing, um, you know, paying out salaries to people, or, you know, if you're budgeting for buying makeup and you make this much and you're going to take out this percentage in taxes and, and all of that kind of stuff, it does, Like you said, put skin on it, where it's like, okay, like that I can wrap my brain around.

Yeah. 

Instead of like the word questions where they would say like, you know, John bought 73 watermelons at the farmer's market. Like that didn't help me very much. 

Jerry: Yeah. You're like, I don't know, John. Right. But my first question is why is he buying 73 watermelons? That seems like way too many watermelons.

Yeah. 

Andrea: And while I'm thinking about that, that's where I miss it. 

Jerry: Maybe we should write a book. Math, making math relatable for young girls, or just call it way too many watermelons. There's a thing there, right? It's like our inside joke, but no, I'm with you. Like, yeah, that was so hard. Like these abstract, like, that's just how it is.

And I'm like, yeah, I'm not into that. I need, I need to know, like, I need to know. And if you can't tell me, then I'm just like, you may as well be like saying like magic words in Latin to me, because I don't understand these. 

Andrea: Yeah, and I, I think a big part of it for me was also the terminology that they would assume a knowledge about the terminology within math, like, and that's the same for a lot of classes where it's like very subject specific terminology.

And because those concepts didn't really hold much weight because they were all like just like in the ether floating around my head, I had a really hard time remembering what What those words meant. And so she would explain it up there and would be like, yeah, and then, you know, you do this with a denominator and I'm like, is that the top or the bottom?

Jerry: Right. The sine and the cosine. I'm like. 

Andrea: Yeah. And I'd already be lost before she even finished, or I'd be wondering what they were using watermelons for. Like, I would be. 

Jerry: Like, what is, it's like, does Peter work for Gallagher? Right. I'm like, how 

Andrea: is this, what is happening right now? And, and then I would get really frustrated and feel really dumb because everyone else was like, who cares about the watermelons?

And I was like, me, you know, like, that would 

Jerry: be always the challenge. But you also were going into like writing and creative, like that was for me too, like I was, I knew that I was going to go into some creative field. And so there was also just There's also just like a 100, 000 foot level of like, even if I was to spend the time to try to understand this, will I ever use this in my life?

And I was pretty sure that the answer for calculus was a solid. 

Andrea: Yeah. And that as like, as a teacher, that is the worst. Question to be asked. It's so frustrating. But I remember there were many times where someone would be like, when am I ever going to have to use this analyzing poetry? And I would have to be like, probably never, to be honest, today, this, this year, when we have a final.

But also, if you don't know what a metaphor is, That's going to be embarrassing. I'm trying to help you save you from embarrassment. See, and I, at least with English, always had the piece of like, the way you communicate is in and of itself a message to the world around you. Yeah. And I want you to feel comfortable communicating with the, the power that you want to use in every single situation.

Cause I would have students from, you know, very, very Southern areas and rural Virginia, and they would use a lot of slang All of that, and they're like, there's nothing wrong with that. I was like, I agree. Like, we, we all code switch, but if I were to show up and use all of your guys's slang to, and I, there, it was 2013, so the slang has completely changed, but I, you know, would use a string of, I usually would introduce the topic by using a string of just very current terms.

Slang, like the kind of brain rot stuff that we hear now, and they would physically recoil from me, and I'm like, okay, do you see how I just, I came in here and I used the wrong terminology for this situation, for who I am to you, all of that. I want you guys to have the tools to know how to use the English language in a way that no matter what room you go into, you can.

You can use it however you want to use it and send the message you want to send. And that to me was a really powerful way of, of making what we were learning really relevant because I'm like, I, I don't want you walking into a room and feeling like, you know, I'm from this region and therefore everyone in this room is going to judge me and see me in some type of way.

Like, if you still want to send that message and be like, screw you, I am who I am. Great. That's totally your choice, but I want you at least to have the tool here to, to adjust if you want to adjust. 

Jerry: Yeah. That's such a great way to put it is like, you're giving them an option to, to, that they, you know, and to, to, to really honor where they're from and the language they use, but also to say like, there are going to be rooms where you're going to just be not saying it's a good thing, bad thing, but there's rooms where if you speak in a certain way, you're not going to be taken as seriously.

Andrea: Yeah. 

Jerry: Um, I also love telling students how are you going to use this? I'm going to save you from embarrassment. Like, I'm going to save you from shame. Right. That's a powerful motivator. Right. But funny. But no, I love that. I love, I love the way you think about that. 

Andrea: Yeah. Especially at that age where like, there is nothing worse than being embarrassed.

Like, there's nothing worse that you can have than having people laugh at you. And, you know, especially since a lot of these kids, a lot of their interactions are online and therefore, Documented for other people to view and so a lot like giving them the tools so that they can at least use grammar in a way that they are communicating what they want to communicate is, is, was always something that I really stress to them.

And I'm like, it's not that it matters for communication. I would like I. It's not a moral thing that I care about where the comma goes, but if you're trying to communicate something and you put the comma in the wrong space sometimes, you are communicating something completely different that you maybe don't want to communicate.

And 

I feel like that always made so much more sense to me than the math piece, where I was just like, I want to eventually pay for an accountant so that I don't have to think about math. Little did I know I'm still going to be doing it myself because I'm too cheap to pay for an accountant. But, but hypothetically, I was going to.

The 

Jerry: thinking is there. This is what I learned from, what I learned from geometry is that I'm going to be hiring an accountant when I'm an adult. 

Andrea: Literally. That's so, so very true. Oh my gosh. So when you eventually became an accountant yourself, um, how, like, how did you make that switch? Because you, you know, you said in high school and all of that, like you were eating breakfast at a neighboring high school.

How did you go from that to being like, yeah, sure. Of course I will. Yeah. Apply for this accountant job. 

Jerry: So I never actually, that's the funny thing. I never applied for an accounting job. I, um, I got hired. Uh, so I, one of the guys who taught me at NYU at theater school was like, Oh, you need to meet this, this woman who's producing this Broadway show.

Um, and she's looking for an assistant. So I got hired as her assistant and it was a show that was financed by universal studios. And so they came in with this like whole Production accounting software system. They wanted the accountant and there was an accountant on the project and the accountant, I don't remember exactly what happened, but within a week was fired.

And they were like, can you like, just as a temporary measure, kind of like, we'll tell you what to do, but just fill in the stuff that needs to get filled in. Cause they were based in California and we were in New York and they're like, we'll get you on, get you on the speakerphone, like talk you through it.

I was like, okay. And so. I called my dad. My dad was actually a CPA. So my dad was an actual accountant. 

Andrea: Oh, amazing. So you also got him on the speakerphone then. 

Jerry: And so I called him and I was like, Hey, so, um, here's what's happening. I go, I'm looking at this thing and there's stuff like called debits and credits.

And like it within the next hour, I need to kind of know what that means. So like, can you explain it to me? And like, we didn't, this was in like 19, 92, I think, so email wasn't quite a thing. So, like, but my father, like, literally started, like, faxing me, like, instructions. Oh my gosh. 

Andrea: That gives me such second hand anxiety, thinking about having, like, my boss be like, can you do math for me?

It's very important. And then having to read faxes to figure it out. 

Jerry: Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's how I, and that's how I learned, uh, was through the faxes. Um, and then just doing it. And, um, and I was honest with them. I was like, I don't know what any of this means. They're like, well, and then by the end of that.

By the end of that experience, I actually did understand production accounting. It's a very, which is a very specific, you know, you're looking, you have a budget and then you're like just assigning everything to the budget and like, there's, you know, there's a little more to it, but, um, and that's, that's how I ended up working on all these TV shows because Universal was like, Oh, you're now our guy in New York.

Like, this is hilarious. I was like, I've got three, I've got three math teachers in Florida who would, who would think you have the wrong guy if you call them right now and tell them. 

Andrea: You're like, no, everything is fine. This is, yep. This is what I do. I am the expert. It 

Jerry: turns out. I'm a math guy. Yeah. It turns out, go figure.

Andrea: Oh man. Okay. So before we wrap up, do you have any tips or resources for teachers that are trying to like liven things up, something that they could go to that might be able to help them, um, bring up engagement that wouldn't cause them a whole lot of extra work? 

Jerry: Sure. Yeah. I mean, the two things I would say from, from our world are, um, for the, for like the middle school teachers, uh, there is a show we did called, uh, brainchild, which is on Netflix.

Um, but we, that's what we did with Pharrell and we actually created curriculum that goes with the show. We hired, uh, teachers to, to create stem curriculum and classroom activities and, and, and like take home worksheets for the kids. And that's all at a site called brainchild show.com. So, it's free, it's all free, um, if teachers want to use it, it makes it a little, you know, at least, at least takes a day of planning off their plate if they want.

Andrea: Yeah. 

Jerry: Um, and then the other one for, for younger kids, for elementary and homeschool, uh, eight, eight to 10 year olds is our podcast, Who's Smarted? Um, and that's on any podcast platform, also free four times a week. We have 500 plus episodes. Like, literally any topic that you're about to teach, search, we have an episode, it's 15 minutes long, it'll get the kids excited.

And so when you start getting into the curriculum, their, their brains are primed and ready. 

Andrea: I love that. And you guys also have a subscription for classroom educators? 

Jerry: Oh, yes. Thank you. My PR person right now is like, well, thank God Andrew is paying attention. Um, yes. Yeah. One of the things we heard from a lot of classroom educators was they couldn't use, um, WhoSmarted in the class because it had, has ads.

So we, we now make it free, um, for the educators to get the subscription that has no ads, extra episodes. Um, and you can get that if you go to whosmarted. com and click educators, it takes two seconds and you'll have access to the entire library with, with no ads. Oh, 

Andrea: that's so awesome. I love that. And totally, totally 

Jerry: free for, free for life for, for, for educators.

for our classroom teachers. That's 

Andrea: awesome. 

Jerry: And we also offer the same thing at a 50 percent discount for homeschoolers. So they can just email us. Yeah. 

Andrea: I love that. Awesome. I'm going to have to check that out, especially because having two kids who are in elementary school, I am out of Weirdly out of my depth, because a lot of people think that like, well, you're, you know, you're, you're, you're a doctorate in education, you know how to do the teaching stuff, but I do not know how to teach the tiny ones.

That is a whole different ballgame. 

Jerry: Yeah, it's a different, everything about it is different, but yeah, maybe Who's Smarter would be a good resource for you. 

Andrea: Yeah, I'm going to definitely check it out. Um, where, well, are there any like other new projects that you want to shout out before we let you go and where people can find you and all that good stuff?

Jerry: You can find us at AtomicEntertainment. com or Whosmarted. com. Um, we have some new stuff coming up, but you know, these, the, I would say Whosmarted and Brainchild are both great things to look at right now. If you're, if you're a parent and you like true crime and comedy, this one's not for the kids, but our show Slaycation is very fun, very funny true crime show called Slaycation, where it's all about murders that happen on vacation.

But not, that one is not for the kids. 

Andrea: That one's not, not for the little ones. 

Jerry: That's for, that's for, that's for the grownups to have a laugh and enjoy. So I'm going to check that 

Andrea: one out too. And that is a top tier podcast name to Slaycation. Immediately when I saw that, I was like, that sounds right up my alley.

So 

Jerry: I have a feeling you might become one of our Slaycators. I would love that. Yeah. 

Andrea: Very good. Well, thank you again, Jerry, for coming and hanging out today. I really appreciate it. 

Jerry: Thank you, Andrea. That's awesome. 

Andrea: Awesome. All right, guys, we'll be right back.

Welcome back to those who can't do, um, I had so much fun chatting with Jerry and he has so many cool experiences in like parts of the entertainment industry that I have enjoyed for such a long time, like love reality TV, love Nat Geo, as, as you guys heard, tried to stalk my way into a job there once upon a time.

So I. Like, I think that's so fascinating, and I think it's really exciting that people who are education minded are looking to create educational content that are going to help us as educators kind of support what we have going on, but also just are, you know, fun and entertaining, and I think you called it edutainment, which I absolutely love.

Um, if you have thoughts about what we chatted about today, or you have suggestions on who you would like to have come on, you can hit us up. Andrea at human content. com or you can contact me at Educator Andrea or you can contact the whole human content podcast family at Human Content Pods. And thank you so much to the wonderful listeners who have left awesome reviews.

In particular, thank you to my dear friend, Lauren Chela on Apple, who said, I was a guest on the podcast and chose to list all the other episodes because she actually interviews real teachers who have practical advice and funny stories, not just much of the edge you speak that we get in our credential program.

Plus, Andrea has devoted her life and career to helping other teachers, so it just kind of feels like she's my IRL mentor, which I really appreciate because I think Lauren Chela is an incredible educator, and she was one of the. Like first few episodes that we did and um, she's just a good human. She's a Gen Z history teacher on TikTok and Instagram.

Um, so thank you, Lauren. That's so very kind. Um, if you want to catch the full video episodes, they're up every week on YouTube at Educator Andrea. Thank you so much for listening. I am your host, Andrea Forkham. A very special thank you to our guest co host today, Jerry Kolbert. Our executive producers are Andrea Forkham, Aron Korney, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke.

Our editor is Andrew Sims. Our engineer is Jason Portizo. Our music is by Omer Ben Zvi. Our recording location is Indiana State Bi College of Education. To learn more about are those who can't do is program disclaimer and ethics policy and submission verification and licensing terms. You can go to podcast or andrea.com.

Those who can't do is a human content production.

Thank you so much for watching. If you're like me and you're thinking, gosh, I really need more, those who can't do in my. You can start your binging right now by clicking on that playlist button right over there. New episodes are out every Thursday, so please subscribe and join us each week on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.